Forums > Game Talk > Fire & Ice - The Daring Adventures of Cool Coyote
tom fregosi (3) on 10/29/2007 8:24 PM · Permalink · Report
Hello, I remember playing this game when I was younger. Now that the developer has gone debunk, it's considered freeware (well, that's what the guys over at the Amiga forums were saying). Anyways, do any of you know where I can get the code book for the DOS version of this game? You cannot get past the second level without it.
Pseudo_Intellectual (66360) on 10/29/2007 10:11 PM · Permalink · Report
This reveals a somewhat immature notion regarding how abandonware status is attained. Only people with rights to the software can abandon it, and once the company goes defunct, those rights transfer over to its creditors, even if those are only some bank.
tom fregosi (3) on 10/30/2007 5:53 PM · Permalink · Report
Well, the thing is. The Amiga version (1992, not the CD32 version) has been distributed freely due to the current holders allowing many sites to. The DOS version is identical, but I don't know if anyone has received permission. So yeah, Amiga-wise I'm sure it's free to distribute, but I'm not sure about the DOS version.
Pseudo_Intellectual (66360) on 10/30/2007 7:16 PM · Permalink · Report
what can be safely said is that like most software for defunct platforms, the original publishers are not tremendously vigilant about enforcing their ownership. that doesn't make it ethically ("abandonware") or legally ("freeware") defensible, just ("warez") affordable 8)
St. Martyne (3648) on 10/30/2007 7:41 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Pseudo_Intellectual wrote--] the original publishers are not tremendously vigilant about enforcing their ownership. that doesn't make it ethically ("abandonware") [/Q --end Pseudo_Intellectual wrote--]
Excuse me, why doesn't it? Is the game still being sold/supported by them? If not then it is "abandonware". Which, of course, doesn't make it any less "warez". And on the contrary even if the publisher asks those sites to remove the game, it won't become any less "abandonware", until they start selling/supporting it again.
tom fregosi (3) on 10/30/2007 7:45 PM · Permalink · Report
By allowing, I mean they have permission. The holders of GraftGold have given several websites permission to upload Fire and Ice. Just the Amiga 1992 edition, the 1994 CD32 edition is illegal to distribute, and I'm not certain if the DOS version is freeware. But since the Amiga version is identical I am going to assume that it is freeware.
Pseudo_Intellectual (66360) on 10/30/2007 11:52 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
The holders of GraftGold have given several websites permission to upload Fire and Ice. Just the Amiga 1992 edition
Now we're getting closer to something reasonable. Still doesn't make the game freeware -- just makes that version freely available from only those sites 8) However, since "free" is the key part there, let us throw up our hats and rejoice!
Still doesn't help you with the copy protection for the without-permission DOS version, though 8)
DJP Mom (11333) on 10/30/2007 10:35 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
"Excuse me, why doesn't it? Is the game still being sold/supported by them? If not then it is "abandonware". Which, of course, doesn't make it any less "warez". And on the contrary even if the publisher asks those sites to remove the game, it won't become any less "abandonware", until they start selling/supporting it again."
He's not saying it isn't abandonware, though - kind of the contrary - he's saying even if it is abandonware that doesn't make it ethically or legally defensible to appropriate it. I think. Sometimes it's hard to tell ;-)
Pseudo_Intellectual (66360) on 10/31/2007 12:12 AM · Permalink · Report
A lot of abandonware rhetoric seems to be messed up in assumptions out of trademark law, which states that trademarks can fall into the public domain if not aggressively defended by their holders. When the holders become defunct, the inheritors of the trademarks are often more lackadaisical regarding the trademark enforcement -- meaning there's a good chance you could make a new game featuring Fire 'n Ice's "Cool Coyote" and get away with it. The software product, however, remains protected for quite some time.
Is the game abandoned or are the current owners in negotiation with a company to put 10 thousand Amiga games on a joystick that plugs into your TV (a move that will be compromised -- in their ability to financially succeed in re-introducing their product to the market, which seems to be the alternative many abandonware proponents seem to advocate -- if some jerkfaces go and give it away for free)? The best we can generally know is that it's "unsupported-for-the-time-being-ware" 8)
(True, warez can act to keep a defunct property viable, fueling its memory in fans. But that's not a position many would argue in court 8)
St. Martyne (3648) on 10/31/2007 7:22 AM · edited · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Pseudo_Intellectual wrote--]Is the game abandoned or are the current owners in negotiation with a company to put 10 thousand Amiga games on a joystick that plugs into your TV... [/Q --end Pseudo_Intellectual wrote--]
I don't see how those two contradict each other. They could be in talks for years, with the game still not being selling/supporting.
[Q --start Pseudo_Intellectual wrote--] The best we can generally know is that it's "unsupported-for-the-time-being-ware" 8) [/Q --end Pseudo_Intellectual wrote--]
Why? If we have an "abandonware" word for it? It doesn't matter if the copyright holder in talks with some company to re-introduce the title. As long as I can't buy the game legally and receive a technical support for it, it's "abandonware".
I understand that it may compromise the release of the up-coming title, but I've already said that one should not consider "abandonware" not to be "warez". It is "warez" with just one little justifying reason that, if nothing else, can at least keep your conscience clean.
Perhaps, we ran into some semantic disagreements. What do you consider to be "abandonware"?
Pseudo_Intellectual (66360) on 10/31/2007 7:41 AM · Permalink · Report
I don't see how those two contradict each other. They could be in talks for years, with the game still not being selling/supporting.
Something that is treated as abandoned can't be easily reclaimed. I think abandonment only happens in the unusual event that there are certifiably no future plans for the property.
Why? If we have an "abandonware" word for it?
There are certain salvaging, "up for grabs" connotations in response to the word "abandoned", as though the legitimate owners are guilty of neglect and the law of the land demands that we as game players take matters into our own hands. After all, it was derelict, deserted, forsaken, spurned. If they don't want it we'll gladly take it!
one should not consider "abandonware" not to be "warez". It is "warez" with just one little justifying reason that, if nothing else, can at least keep your conscience clean.
This is use of the term "abandonware" that really only means as much as the phrase "oldwarez", though possibly with the extension of "oldwarez demonstrably not prosecuted for illegally distributing at this time". Should abandonware connote anything more than "warez we're pretty sure we can get away with because the owners have forgotten about it"?
What do you consider to be "abandonware"?
For starters, nothing released more recently than 20 years ago (I was going to say 15 but look, that's the precise age of Fire & Ice 8)
I'd like the knowledge that some serious effort was made in good faith to determine and contact the legitimate owner of the property and that only after some soul-searching and tough questions does a title emerge for all intents and purposes into the public domain. Instead there's sometimes an arbitrary age-check (5 years? it's clear!) and a peek into whether the title is owned by an ISDA member.
I don't mean to come down as mister authority here, since it's possible I've pirated more warez than the rest of you combined... I just try not to delude myself about the defensibility of my actions. If I go to court after being charged for trespassing dumpster diving for day-old artisan bread behind a bakery, I'm not going to mount a defense claiming that I was simply availing myself of abandonbread that belonged in the public domain because its toasting was no longer supported by the bakers.
General Error (4329) on 10/31/2007 10:28 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Pseudo_Intellectual wrote--]If I go to court after being charged for trespassing dumpster diving for day-old artisan bread behind a bakery, I'm not going to mount a defense claiming that I was simply availing myself of abandonbread that belonged in the public domain because its toasting was no longer supported by the bakers. [/Q --end Pseudo_Intellectual wrote--] Lol! Abandonbread...
St. Martyne (3648) on 10/31/2007 12:04 PM · Permalink · Report
I am not sure that the jury would be touched, if you said that the bread was 20-days old and some serious effort was made in good faith to determine and contact the legitimate owner of the bakery with some soul-searching and tough questions .
I am just saying that as long as the game is not released as a freeware or freeware but not freely distributable there is no legal way to own it without paying to the copyright holder. No matter what timespan you choose and how earnest you are in your desire to check if the copyright holder doesn't mind.
All the conditions you mention are based on your own notions of what makes it ethically correct. Ethics varies from person to person. Thus I insist that the term "abandonware" should be applicable to games which, I repeat once again, are no longer being sold/supported. It's not legal to distribute them, no matter how much time has passed (in limits of copyright expiration date, of course, and I don't think that any game has reached that age). That still doesn't allow you to legally download them. Just an excuse you can say to yourself at night, and certainly not before the court.
it's possible I've pirated more warez than the rest of you combined
Perhaps, perhaps not.... casual whistles
Pseudo_Intellectual (66360) on 10/31/2007 12:33 PM · Permalink · Report
freeware but not freely distributable
???
As in, you can get this for free, but only by filling out a form on my website... which has been busted for 5 years?
I insist that the term "abandonware" should be applicable to games which, I repeat once again, are no longer being sold/supported.
There's already a term for that: "unavailable", packed with its loaded connotations of "through conventional and legitimate means" 8)
I don't think that any game has reached that age
The personal computer won't yet have reached that age until we're all old enough to be grandparents 8)
chirinea (47495) on 10/31/2007 3:07 PM · Permalink · Report
For a good discussion on abandonware, I recommend this article from ours truly Trixter.