Lets just go outside, like our fathers did.

Forums > Game Talk > Lets just go outside, like our fathers did.

Shazbut (163) on 5/20/2008 9:49 PM · Permalink · Report

I'm not sure how long I've been fighting this. A few months ago though, I played and completed The Last Express for the first time. Afterwards, I tried and failed repeatedly to review it as it had awakened so many issues I have with computer games that the writing would just get out of hand. I haven't really played anything since, so maybe it's to blame. Anyway, I'm now facing the following horrible truth:

I'm so sick of computer games. I think they're shit, and I want to give them up.

For some reason, I sense that some other people are going through a lull at the moment. But I think this is more than that. I hate the way games are going. Granted, I have always been a PC gamer after they stopped making games for the Amiga 500, and maybe I'd find what I'm looking for if I went out and bought a console, but it's an expensive step and I'm sceptical. Games are just too immature. Orcs, guns, dragons, tanks, and semi-naked girls. It's sophomoric and it's pathetic. Consequently, games are more popular than they've ever been. So they're more conventional, more expensive, and take FOREVER to see the light of day. I mean, I have a passing interest in Deus Ex 3 but the fucking thing won't be out for another 5 years so I'm not exactly excited. Games magazines are getting thinner and thinner for this reason. The PC magazines that I browse on the shelves have recently started having full 4-page reviews of indie games and even freeware games, clearly because they don't have shit else to fill the magazine with. Not that the games are necessarily bad of course, and if anything is going to keep me interested in the industry then it'll be original and creative offerings by small developers, but it would be nice if the mags came out and just admitted that this retro/indie popularity is tied in to the fact that mainstream gaming appears to be going down the toilet. Or maybe just mainstream PC gaming. Or maybe it's always been like this, and I have outgrown it. At 22.

This is the current top 10 PC chart

01 Football Manager 2008 (No change) 02 Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare (Last week: 3) 03 The Sims 2: Freetime (Last week: 2) 04 Assassin's Creed (No change) 05 Warhammer 40K: Dawn of War Soulstorm (No change) 06 Civilization IV Complete (Last week: 14) 07 The Sims 2 (Last week: 6) 08 World of Warcraft: Battle Chest (Last week: 10) 09 Medieval II: Total War Gold Edition (Last week: 15) 10 The Sims: Castaway Stories (Last week: 7)

3 of the places are the Sims. The top spot is football. The second is a re-enactment of a real life war, like wat i did wen i waz 8, but on a computer. In fact they can all fuck off, especially numbers 5 and 8. If Casanova were alive today, he would not be spending his free time trying to level up a Paladin. Playing computer games remains something to be embarrassed about. I have friends who look down on me for having an interest in them and my girlfriend was embarrassed for me when I admitted that I ocassionally wrote about games on the internet. I can't blame her. For every Last Express, there's 50 games where you play make-believe creatures shooting each other with lazer beams in the future. You'll just have to believe me when I say that it isn't external pressure that is making me stop playing. There just isn't anything out there that appeals any more.

This is clearly a bit of an angry rant, and one that maybe is easily shot down in flames. So go ahead and flame me or whatever, but if there IS anyone out there who feels the same then for God's sake say something because it would be nice to know that I'm not alone in wanting to take this medium away from the geeks for a bit.

The potential for computers, the POTENTIAL people! Interactive storytelling! Interactive art! New forms! Human stories! Things that move you! Things that make a difference!

Oh forget it, this is a hugely tangential post. I'm trying to express a lot and failing.

Игги Друге (46653) on 5/20/2008 9:57 PM · Permalink · Report

[Q --start Shazbut wrote--]The potential for computers, the POTENTIAL people! Interactive storytelling! Interactive art! New forms! Human stories! Things that move you! Things that make a difference![/Q --end Shazbut wrote--] And, as you write, for every geek there is that writes on the internet about how games is a new, exciting art form to be viewed as an equal of other forms of culture, there are a hundred games about killing monsters or forming a team of girls in mini skirts who kill monsters.

Have you ever visited a shop where they sell games? It doesn't exactly look like a bastion for people with cultural interests.

J. P. Gray (115) on 5/20/2008 10:42 PM · edited · Permalink · Report

[Q --start Игги Друге wrote--]And, as you write, for every geek there is that writes on the internet about how film is a new, exciting art form to be viewed as an equal of other forms of culture, there are a hundred films about killing monsters or forming a team of girls in mini skirts who kill monsters.

Have you ever visited a cinema? It doesn't exactly look like a bastion for people with cultural interests. [/Q --end Игги Друге wrote--]

Fixed. :-D I don't think such hard-core cynicism is justified. Great innovative games are out there, but expecting them to be popular hits is usually expecting too much. Every once in a while a UFO Defense, Civilization, Tetris, Under a Killing Moon, or Loom comes along that -is- both innovative and popular, but what Pauline Kael said about movies holds true:

"Games are so rarely great art that if we cannot appreciate great trash we have very little reason to be interested in them."

Shazbut (163) on 5/20/2008 10:51 PM · edited · Permalink · Report

There are certainly some innovative games out there, but I don't think it's a coincidence that all 5 of those games you mentioned are more than a decade old.

J. P. Gray (115) on 5/21/2008 12:20 AM · edited · Permalink · Report

As Hume would say, favor over time defines the sublime. A classic keeps earning praises well beyond its original time and place, and its core appeal doesn't wane as fashions change. For instance, Gladiator may have won some Oscars, but it's doubtful to me it will ever be included in any critic's list of "top all time films" ten years from now. So to my way of thinking, there's no real way to tell if a current game is a "classic." We can pick out a few as innovative, enjoyable and unique, but it remains to be seen what impact they'll have on the genre as a whole.

MichaelPalin (1414) on 5/21/2008 9:10 AM · Permalink · Report

Do you want recent classic that has also been popular? Portal.

GAMEBOY COLOR! (1990) on 5/21/2008 12:28 AM · Permalink · Report

Shadow of the Colossus, and ICO. Those are some fairly recent games that are the most innovative I can think of. And please don't go into a drone about how much these games are harped on, because trust me, I know.

Late (77) on 6/3/2008 12:18 PM · Permalink · Report

[Q --start Игги Друге wrote--] Have you ever visited a shop where they sell games? It doesn't exactly look like a bastion for people with cultural interests. [/Q --end Игги Друге wrote--]

So... computer games aren't culture? Because, you know, that would mean they are nature...

Игги Друге (46653) on 6/3/2008 5:09 PM · Permalink · Report

[Q --start Late wrote--] [Q2 --start Игги Друге wrote--] Have you ever visited a shop where they sell games? It doesn't exactly look like a bastion for people with cultural interests. [/Q2 --end Игги Друге wrote--] So... computer games aren't culture? Because, you know, that would mean they are nature... [/Q --end Late wrote--] There is a difference between art and growing potatoes. At least to cultivated beings.

Late (77) on 6/4/2008 5:59 AM · Permalink · Report

[Q --start Игги Друге wrote--] [Q2 --start Late wrote--] [Q3 --start Игги Друге wrote--] Have you ever visited a shop where they sell games? It doesn't exactly look like a bastion for people with cultural interests. [/Q3 --end Игги Друге wrote--] So... computer games aren't culture? Because, you know, that would mean they are nature... [/Q2 --end Late wrote--] There is a difference between art and growing potatoes. At least to cultivated beings. [/Q --end Игги Друге wrote--]

Well ex-CUUUUUUUUUUUSE MEEEEEee, princess! Are you sure you didn't mean "At least to Leavisite snobs?" Anyhow, discussing semantics on the Interwebs is ultimately fruitless so I'll just shut up on the subject.

For now, at least.

Игги Друге (46653) on 6/4/2008 10:29 AM · Permalink · Report

[Q --start Late wrote--] Anyhow, discussing semantics on the Interwebs is ultimately fruitless so I'll just shut up on the subject. [/Q --end Late wrote--] You're not even good at it. My little brother used the same argument when he was 12.

Late (77) on 6/5/2008 6:11 AM · Permalink · Report

I suggest you turn your account over to your little brother then, he sounds like a swell guy.

Игги Друге (46653) on 6/6/2008 12:26 AM · Permalink · Report

I'm sure he has better things to do than discuss semantics with you.

Late (77) on 6/6/2008 4:19 AM · Permalink · Report

[Q --start Игги Друге wrote--]I'm sure he has better things to do than discuss semantics with you. [/Q --end Игги Друге wrote--]

My uncle used the same argument when he was 52.

Unicorn Lynx (181775) on 5/21/2008 5:40 AM · edited · Permalink · Report

Oh no... not another intellectual gamer in a crisis.

Look man, if you don't enjoy games any more, go ahead and stop playing them, wait out till the crisis is over. But I have to react to your post because I feel exactly the opposite of what you're saying.

I have too many games I don't have time to play. I discover forgotten masterpieces of the past. Impatiently wait for new releases. Expand my genre preferences. And am generally experiencing one of the best gaming periods of my life.

I'm over 30, I have several time-consuming jobs and one very time-consuming wife. I've been a regular book worm during my entire life. And I still enjoy playing video games, now perhaps more than ever. Perhaps my reasons for that will help you to overcome your crisis.

First, why do you care so much for top charts and other meaningless stuff? Why do you care that most gamers are idiots? They have their reasons to like video games, you have your own. If you have a good taste, chances are you'll never be in accordance with the opinions of the majority. Not only in games, but pretty much in everything else. You are able to enjoy deep, intellectual games - why don't you let the masses enjoy their silly entertainment? To each his own. You can't demand from the majority to have exclusive taste.

Second, even if you absolutely can't ignore all those "unfair" rankings, consider this. Games have a short history. You say that for every Last Express there are 50 stupid games. Well, for every "Brothers Karamasov", there were 50 crappy sentimental novels. Do you know how much musical trash was produced at the time of Mozart and Beethoven? The reason we don't remember this trash is because of the time gap that separates us from it, and because literature and music have gained sufficient respect as an art form, while games have not. Years will pass and history will select and separate the Last Expresses and the System Shocks and the Ultimas and the ICOs and the Shin Megami Tenseis from the laser-shooting whatevers. Give games a chance. We witness the first steps of a young art. Let it grow and then see the results.

Third, try to demand less from games. Think of their artistic value as a bonus. What is the essence of video games? Entertainment. Everyone needs a hobby. When your life gets too stressful, you can go out, grab a beer, and play cards. Or you can turn on the computer and travel to wonderful worlds and experience stories in which you are the hero. What would you suggest as an equivalent to games? Honestly, after I've discovered video games, I don't feel the need to sit and watch TV soap operas or boring soccer competitions or play poker.

Games are a great entertainment. Perhaps you could reverse your thoughts. Instead of complaining about how most games are stupid, think that if there is one game that is not stupid, it's already a great achievement. The developers could just keep producing one stupid generic game after the other, and no one would say anything. Instead, from time to time they deliver artistic creations that can rival books and movies.

Oh, and if your friends look down at you because you play games, then it's entirely their problem. And if your girlfriend feels embarrassed because you write reviews for games, don't forget to tell her how embarrassed you feel when she spends hours in a clothes store.

Steely Gaze (208) on 5/21/2008 10:34 PM · Permalink · Report

[Q --start JazzOleg wrote--] Everything I was about to say but condensed into a coherent and smart group of words that actually express meaning. [/Q --end JazzOleg wrote--]

Damn! I've got to get on here earlier if I don't want you to steal the words right out of my mouth. Uh, either way, listen to this man, for he knows what he speaks.

lasttoblame (414) on 5/25/2008 5:41 PM · Permalink · Report

[Q --start JazzOleg wrote--]Oh no... not another intellectual gamer in a crisis.[/Q --end JazzOleg wrote--]

Yep, another one... just like me, Shazbut. (I'm not an intellectual, tho) You're right to be dissatisfied with them, because video games are shit. They're not getting better over time despite this incredible technological advancement because of these "morons" at the game stores. Games are shit because shit is fun, so people get the fun they want. That's why these idiots are important; that's why you'll keep seeing WWII shooters--cuz the "fun" war isn't over yet!

[Q --start JazzOleg wrote--]Look man, if you don't enjoy games any more, go ahead and stop playing them, wait out till the crisis is over. [/Q --end JazzOleg wrote--]

Crisis? Szechuan province having a catatrophic earthquake is a crisis. Having a hobby that isn't fun anymore is a crisis? What the fuck? It's a hobby. Yo, Shazbut, are you enrolled at a Church of the Holy 1Up? Are video games a religion to you? Is your faith in video games being called into question? Only then yes, it's a crisis.

Maybe Shazbut is saying he wishes games were as fun as when he first started, maybe he's saying he's not satisfied with even video games finest games, and maybe he's saying he doesn't want to leave the "flock", he wants all of you to cajole him back. However, it's funny how you guys are acting to bring him back into the "fold". Why?

Cause you need him. That's why he's complaining about those morons, because by and far games are played by people who don't think about them like y'all do. Y'all can't lose a member of an already small group. Sounds like the advice you're giving him is better for you than it is for him. You need a guy who appreciates videogames because they are rare (except at this end of the internet) the same way you NEED society to validate videogames as an art form. Fuck. Maybe it IS a religion. Mobygames doesn't a a "ranch" out in the woods where y'all have "weekend retreats", does it? (it's a "cult" if the vans that go to pick up those in "crisis" and have run away from the "ranch" are colored white)

Yah, about that little mistake I now have to correct: Ahem... Video games are art. Yup, they are. Most definitely they are. They are an art form because they are crappiest art form on the planet. Video games are right up there with Beanie Babies. You wanna tell a story? Well, you'd be better off telling it a different way and not in a video game unless your story includes random battles, boss encounters, or gigantic breasts with appropiate physics. Also fellas, don't get design mixed up with art: a 50-foot tall mech is cool design, but bad art. (Maybe if the mech was dressed up like a mime... ah, the French would love that!!)

This is not to say that there aren't any good games, or even any artistic games. Yup, sure are. Lots of fun, intellectually stimulating, emotionally moving, and of course with gigantic breasts. Entertainment for everyone. But what are video games? (besides being a fucking art form). Games.

I know Jim Leonard has that quote "if it even has one choice in it.. guess what? It's a game", but I have a better one (and may the Gods of Interactive Video Entertainment have pity on my soul): A game is something that you can win, or lose. Just like any other game. (except other type of games don't have explicit walkthroughs and faq's as well as easy difficulty settings that make "winning" so easy).

It is this definition that will shape the video games to come as it had in the past; and so that's why game makers will churn out crap--because people want crap, crap that is fun to win at. People don't want to watch artful CG cutscenes that are poignant and subtle and bring a salty tear to your eye. The public isn't ready, and won't be for a while. Games are empty, hollow experiences. Fun as hell, but not art and the richness that comes with it (yup, but is art form. I'll defend you boys on that, quit whining)

What am I doing here then? (I am in video game geek central; maybe you got here by a malevolent search engine and just didn't know). Because games are fun. Super fun. Because there aren't any breast physics in poker. Awesome way to pass the time. As games are shit, I tend to like bad games. It is the way from which you don't expect anything good to come out of it. One chestnut I can bring up is Zombie Hunters, which involves the low-brow high-octane cocktail of a chick in a bikini, a samurai (sic) word, and zombies waiting to burst with blood just as the face of a pock-faced teenager before a weekend pool party. Aim any higher, and you'll just disappoint yourself with some five-star game that isn't the god-sent experience it's hyped to be (like DANIEL HAWKS !'s suggestion, Shadow of Colossus: original, fun, emotional... and at the end of the day, pretty mediocre art).

Anyways (hey, wasn't all my rambling worth it just for that pimple analogy?), maybe you don't feel this way, Shazbut, but man, games will only take you so far. I guess another way to look at it is: how much fun do you need in your life? Video games are alot of fun, but that's it. Maybe it's time to move on to bottle cap collecting (the hobby of the elite, right up there with SandM, complaining about having too much money or having elective cosmetic surgery to reduce the size of your massive donkey phallus) because videogames aren't going to get any better soon.

One more thought: this is the age of the nerd, the Information Age. Nerds have the best jobs, make the most money. Why then is playing video games, a nerdy/geeky activity looked down upon? (won't rant again, but will say video games deserve the bad reputation they've earned)

Anyways, I'm going outside, like our fathers did, to wait out this "crisis".

Unicorn Lynx (181775) on 5/25/2008 6:19 PM · Permalink · Report

Having a hobby that isn't fun anymore is a crisis?

You know English is not my mother language, so maybe I used a wrong word. I thought "having a crisis" means that someone can't keep doing what he was doing before. Like, a government is having a crisis because it has no money any more. Or, I'm in crisis because I stopped liking women and find myself sexually attracted to opossums. I didn't think you could call an earthquake a "crisis".

However, it's funny how you guys are acting to bring him back into the "fold". Why?

Because we love games, and we want to share the joy with others. Therefore it makes us sad when a passionate gamer with a great taste such as Ed here suddenly How come you don't understand that? If I suddenly said that jazz music sucks and wouldn't play with you anymore, wouldn't you try to prove me wrong?

Dude, you gotta calm down. That's some serious bullshit you're saying.

Aim any higher, and you'll just disappoint yourself with some five-star game that isn't the god-sent experience it's hyped to be

I don't quite understand for what you were aiming, but I'm certainly always aiming for fun, and damn it, I tend to get more fun from "five star" games than from others. I don't mean that they are always better, but what kind of a twisted logic at that - avoid better products because they might disappoint you? Dude, why're you playing jazz then? Why don't you listen to crappy pop songs and nothing more? I mean, Miles Davis wasn't sent by god! It's only good music! How disappointing!

Why don't you eat only in McDonalds, I mean, that Hunan-style beef can certainly disappoint you! It's not that divine, you know. It's merely good food!

Geez... you see where it takes us? I really don't understand what the hell you expect from games. As you said, games are fun. Nobody is saying that they are from god or that they are the best art or whatever, they are fun, for many different reasons, and if you think that fun and good art contradict themselves, then you are wrong. Games are fun in exactly the same way music is fun, books are fun, movies are fun, there is no difference here, the only difference is that other arts exist for millennia while games only exist for a few years, therefore they haven't evolved much yet, and we have to bear all the trash that isn't sorted by history yet, I could remind you that for years movies weren't considered art and people said about them the same things you now say about games, and so on, and so on.

Игги Друге (46653) on 5/26/2008 1:29 AM · Permalink · Report

I think that Lasttoblame has a point. Some of the most vocal participants in all of the longest threads of this forum share some traits: They're from Eastern Europe, they play mostly RPGs and they are gaming snobs.

That's right. You, Oleg, St. Martyne and Irishman share the same tastes, post in the same threads and, for some reason, you love to debate qualities and merits of games. You like to find the very best RPGs and you praise games such as "Witcher", probably because you feel that they push the envelope of the medium.

Why, then, is it so difficult for you to see how some people are not merely content with games that move forward the positions slightly, if you yourselves are only interested in the very best of games? What if the best is not good enough?

Unicorn Lynx (181775) on 5/26/2008 7:56 AM · Permalink · Report

If the best games are not good enough for someone, it can only mean that this someone doesn't really like games. I can't say "I love classical music, but there is no composer who is really good enough for me". That's nonsense.

I personally don't like this kind of contemptuous attitude to games. I can't stand it when people say "Yeah, I play games, but that's because I'm a nerd who has no life, actually games suck". This is such a bullshit that all I can do is roll me eyes.

On second thought, what do I care. I just wanted to encourage Ed because I know his taste in games is similar to mine. Otherwise, if people prefer to be whiny pseudo-masochists with some weird inferiority complexes, I guess there's nothing I can do about that.

Игги Друге (46653) on 5/27/2008 12:32 AM · Permalink · Report

If I took someone to an arcade hall in 1981 and that person told me that the experience was worthless, that person could be you. The games you like weren't invented yet at that point in time. From a higher elevation, the games we have today could look as ”primitive” as the ones in 1981.

Or, to put things in perspective, you can ask a chain smoker about his opinion on cigarettes. Cigarettes are not art, but they still give him pleasure. Even so, he can think that they're shite for all kinds of reasons.

Indra was here (20755) on 5/27/2008 7:20 PM · edited · Permalink · Report

[Q --start JazzOleg wrote--] If the best games are not good enough for someone, it can only mean that this someone doesn't really like games. I can't say "I love classical music, but there is no composer who is really good enough for me". That's nonsense. [/Q --end JazzOleg wrote--]

Dude, if that you put it that way, that means we'd have no rock, pop, metal, jazz in music. We'd only have classical music. And those people who created the new musical genre's didn't "love" music.

I had many friends that "didn't like games". Then they played Championship Manager. Unless of course if you're referring to "not liking a certain genre", then I'm in total agreement.

St. Martyne (3648) on 5/26/2008 9:47 AM · Permalink · Report

[Q --start Игги Друге wrote--]They're from Eastern Europe [/Q --end Игги Друге wrote--]

Yeah, Eastern Europe kicks ass!

St. Martyne (3648) on 5/25/2008 7:46 PM · Permalink · Report

So many game despising threads lately, so I just have to let this rant out.

I like games. No, I love games. No, I simply can't live without video games. Am I looked down upon? By some people of equally questionable taste, yes. Do people shrug their shoulder when I passionately tell them about all the unbelievable experiences I had last night. Well, some do, because they don't quite understand what exactly I am blabbering about. The point is I don't care since the games take up an extremely valuable part of my life, which I would never be able to give up.

Why? lasttoblame has answered to that, because they're fun. It's fun to explore countless fictional or recreated worlds (however crappy they might be), it's fun to feel yourself inside the story (however geeky it is), it's fun to interact with fictional characters that respond to you in seemingly (however predictable those characters might be), it's fun to do what comes to your mind (even if it the most ridiculous thing ever), it's fun to ... do all the things in all the scenarios that games allow you.

But he asks, how much "fun" can one actually take in one's life? My answer is "Until you start vomiting with it". Look for the fun everywhere. I socialize with people to have fun, I drink booze to have fun, I study to have fun learning new things, I work to have fun implementing them, I make everything possible to make people around me feel like fun, because otherwise it wouldn't be that much fun, would it? One should enjoy everything one's doing. That's the meaning of life. That and being a decent person, so that you won't spoil everybody else's fun, for instance by killing them or stealing various funny things from them.

Who cares about art? How wasting your time in the picture galleries or every day listening to the classical or academic jazz music is any more worthwhile then playing games? What is that "richness" that come with art, which games apparently isn't (although it's rather difficult to see through all the contradictory statements of Mr. lasttoblame). Who cares if Shadow Of Colossus isn't art, if its "original, fun and emotional"? Art is overrated, you know.

Why should it bother me that the majority of games is crap if I constantly find myself beautiful, sensual and original titles made by a fantastically large group of very talented and god-touched individuals, who obviously cared about their products as passionately as any artist would. I don't need acceptance or understanding from "other people". I think it will benefit the gaming industry. But as for me, I'm totally secure in all my "geekness".

Who is this "geek" person, anyway? Has anyone ever seen one. I don't know neither Ukranian nor Russian translation for the word. I've learned it once I started using Internet, and in my experience people who use this word to denote other people usually aren't that far in evolutionary chain either.

So, If I saw games as an "empty and hollow hobby of the geeks" then I would avoid them at all costs (as probably many people do), and not enjoy as them as trash, just because there's a lot of high-quality fun to be had elsewhere. In short, I love games, I believe they make me a better person, or at least make me believe they do, which also is a damn good thing if you ask me. Because, from my point of view if I feel good, then I am good.

Am I exaggerating the role games should play in one's life? Perhaps. But it works for me, I hope everybody will be able to find something, which would work for them. What I really hate is people telling others what to do with their life. That kind of people is spoiling my fun, so they are automatically labeled as indecent based on my earlier classification.

Don't be like them, be happy, play games (or don't) and stay positive. Life is short, enjoy it while you can and let others enjoy theirs.

Martyne out.

J. P. Gray (115) on 5/26/2008 12:13 AM · Permalink · Report

Well said. All "great art" is just fun stuff that has the added panache of being enjoyed enough by successive generations to endure. The one game I'm -sure- will be considered great art is Tetris as it's so simple yet brilliantly suited to its medium, but I'm equally sure that many others will share the title someday. What most gets me thinking about "this game is art!" is when the play mechanics and rulesets are robust and inspiring, and computer processing power is used in the utmost to create "only possible on a computer" interactivity. Story-driven games that focus on the cinematic, with indifferent or cloned mechanics, are reminiscent to me of movies that are essentially filmed plays. So much more is possible in film than on the stage that to me the best art of the medium employs its unique possibilities with gusto rather than with indifference. Games that want to be movies feel similarly to me, although filmed plays and cinematic-based simple games can still be great, and may well be considered art.

But at any rate, games are awesome. Computer games are especially awesome.

lasttoblame (414) on 5/26/2008 6:28 PM · Permalink · Report

Heya, I so totally was going to sit this one out and wait outside. But when you're told OFFLINE "hey, you should check out my reply to your post, I completely insulted you," I simply had to come on back. Also, when statements like, "I don't think anyone should tell anyone has the right to tell anyone else what to do" come from video game's biggest humorless self-righteous bore, Mr. St. Martyne, well, I gotta say something. Dude, I'll never forget you said I wasn't funny, something that has been burned into my mind as it comes from somebody who couldn't funny their way out of a wet paper bag after having received a +10 vorpal sword, the entire discography of Richard Pryor's live concerts, and having the incentive of a a live human female vagina as a reward.

That said, I'm hammered and drunk and ready to slap anyone with the belt I'm already taking off. Also, don't expect any reply from Oleg for awhile, if a couple of Long Island Ice Teas are any thing to write home about, so y'all can talk among yourselves for awhile. Oleg, let's keep this online and about video games, so to that end I know not of this "jazz" you speak of. Though I will say you're the one who likes McDonalds; though I don't consider food to be an "art form" (well, it's arty enough), you shouldn't compare the thousands upon thousands of years of food culture in its vast myriad of different human cultures in the rich tapestry of human existance to compare with the 30 some odd years of video gaming. Shadows of the Colossus is a great game (if you don't believe me, DANIEL HAWKS ! said so), but what's a great video game have to compare itself with? Something doesn't have to be a rose to smell like a rose in a field of shit.

Yo, Shazbut, I'm sorry to take away from your thread and the original meaning of it (cause it's about him), so I'll just say my little piece and then leave it as be. I realize that though we may have a simular opinion you don't necessarily feel the same way as I do. This is just directed towards Oleg and Mr. St Martyne, two snobs who have bitch-slapped these forums into complacency. Seriously, what's up with the rest of you? Just because some guy writes 1000 words about how God of War makes him cry y'all take it as scientific fact. Stop looking at the points beside the name and figure out if the words they say have any meaning.

Okay. Video games.

I love video games. But you know what? I shouldn't. (cuz they're shit.. I said that earlier) I keep wishing that they would get better, but they don't. And they won't, not anytime soon. So I resign myself to just what they are, no more and no less: they are games that are immensely fun. It's a hobby. It's a pastime.

I find video games fun to talk about, cuz I find them interesting (if I can quote you, Oleg, you said it's funny how even though I don't consider games art I talk about them as if they are).. but I won't bore anyone who doesn't play video games because they won't know what I'm talking about. So I come here, to video game geek central (THIS time I mean it as a total compliment). But you know, it's disconcerting to hear how seriously some of you consider video games. It's just a hobby. Just because you really like this hobby doesn't mean that others do, or should, or ever will. You win, you lose, and inbetween there is blood, breast physics and someone nagging at you to take out the garbage (uh, not in the game). It's interesting.... to US because we like it, and not to others because video games are just games and don't have the universal depth and truth and beauty that REAL art has.

About that, why shouldn't gamers raise their expectations? If not something that is artistic (and makes you cry, for you pussies that enjoy that type of thing) well then why shouldn't gamers expect a good game? 30 years may not be a long time, but games should be substantially better than when they first started. Instead you have DOOM3 (ah, my first Mobygames review), a game that plays exactly like the first one. The real difference is that the latest one looks waaay better.

Wha? That's all that gaming has advanced since then? You have rocks that look like real rocks (something I remember someone raving about in a review), but you'd have enemy NPC's who can't walk through a door. You could snipe some soldier in a FPS, shoot his head clean off, and have his buddy stand calmly next to him waiting for his own turn and not think, "Hmm, something is rotten in the state of Denmark."

Yo. You have all been playing the same games for 30 years. Things seem novel and fresh now cuz they cast realistic shadows and take over 30 hours to complete. But it's the same game, but with a health bar and 32 online player capabitlity to distract you from the fact that even though game companies could make passable AI they just churn out shit that is fun to play. THAT'S why you have a gagillion sequels, because both companies and gamers want a "sure thing" that is already fun to play and sure to sell. It's a goddamn shame there will be a sequel to Bioshock. It's the same old thing: one guy has a cool, new idea, and then everyone copies that idea because people as a whole DON'T want originality, let alone art.

About art... it cracks me up to hear how y'all will emphatically vow to your deaths about how video games are art... and then have you, Oleg, say that "think of art in video games as a bonus" and then you, Mr. St. Martyne, say "who cares about art... art is overrated." (quotes are approximate, I am under the influence, you know. Don't pity me... envy me!) My comments are no less contradictory than those massive boners there. Wha?

I care about art. I want art in video games. It can happen. It could have happened generations ago. But it won't happen, not anytime soon. Don't hold your breath. If you want something that isn't just alot of fun and passes the time, then look elsewhere.

Yo St Martyne, if video games make you a better person, then never, EVER try charity work, finding the cure for cancer, or trying to make peace between Oleg's people and everyone else who lives around them, or even peace between East and West coast hip-hop artists. Because you may find there's a whole world out there who may benefit from you and your interaction if you'd only get up from that awesome computer console that only pales in comparison from Oleg's beast of a PC (wait... is there a connection?).

Hey'all, I don't mean to shit on something you have a personal interest in. All I mean is video games are cool but shouldn't be taken too seriously cuz they are games and will be simply just that for awhile yet.

I am going back outside. Oleg will tell me offline all about his awesome reply, so you may see yet another post from me that is even longer, funnier, and DRUNKER! MuHA-hahaha!

The Fabulous King (1332) on 5/26/2008 7:29 PM · Permalink · Report

Um...what?

Unicorn Lynx (181775) on 5/27/2008 4:04 AM · Permalink · Report

This is just directed towards Oleg and Mr. St Martyne, two snobs who have bitch-slapped these forums into complacency. Seriously, what's up with the rest of you? Just because some guy writes 1000 words about how God of War makes him cry y'all take it as scientific fact. Stop looking at the points beside the name and figure out if the words they say have any meaning.

Dude, you wrote 1000 words about how video games suck and how you still love them. Sorry, but I think there is much more meaning and coherence in "God of War makes me cry" than in your post.

If I say that God of War makes me cry (actually, I never said that, I said it had a touching story, but whatever), then it's just a simple opinion.

But when you ramble for hours about those shitty, despicable, totally-not-art, no, really, don't-even-dare-think-that-they-are-art games, and then say in the same breath how you like them (which boils down to "Yes, I play games! I'm so ashamed of it! I'm a nerd! I suck!! I despise myself!! Buuuhhhh!"), I can't help thinking about those medieval monks who engaged in various sexual activities and then publicly attributed sex to the devil.

Seriously, dude, there's something psychologically suspicious in your attitude, it looks like a weird kind of masochism. It's not masturbation we're talking about. It's games. Okay? Video games. If you love them so much, don't say they are shit. Just don't. Because it is not just hypocritically-pseudo-cynically-masochistically-masturbatory-annoying, but also doesn't make much common sense.

Ryu (50) on 7/3/2008 7:21 AM · Permalink · Report

[Q --start JazzOleg wrote--]Oh no... not another intellectual gamer in a crisis.

Applause - Exactly, and going back to the dawn of "modern" games, there have always been the "arthouse" titles, and those "popcorn" games that everybody loves - while I would certainly prefer more innovation in games, they are still technically in their infancy, and only time will tell. Currently, most of the development time for new games goes into game engines, assets and bug-testing, with few risks taken gameplay wise - I can sort of see the logic, the mass market demands better graphics, sounds and physics, and those elements are expensive to produce, so the publishers bank on sequels and tried and true formulas - once the cost of development tools levels off somewhat, I think we will see a gaming renaissance, as even indie developers will be able to compete on a technical level.

St. Martyne (3648) on 5/21/2008 8:07 AM · edited · Permalink · Report

[Q --start Shazbut wrote--]A few months ago though, I played and completed The Last Express for the first time. I haven't really played anything since, so maybe it's to blame. [/Q --end Shazbut wrote--]

Yes, it's been known to happen. I experience this feeling every time I finish a five star game.

[Q --start Shazbut wrote--] But I think this is more than that. I hate the way games are going. Games are just too immature. Orcs, guns, dragons, tanks, and semi-naked girls. It's sophomoric and it's pathetic. [/Q --end Shazbut wrote--]

I can only give one advice. Don't expect creativity come looking for you. Look for it in the games yourself. I know a good plethora of games having tanks, guns, orcs and naked girls and still ranking on the same level of artistry as Last Express.

Gothic II had orcs and dragons, but everything was done totally differently than in any other game. The Witcher had naked girls, elves and dwarfs and I qualify it even higher than Last Express.

There are millions of unexplored possibilities even if the game industry will remain confined to those settings and themes. They don't make or break the game, its the talent, effort and creativity of developer that does.

Don't dismiss a game as pathetic for having warrior orcs in it. It just may be something you haven't ever seen before.

[Q --start Shazbut wrote--] Playing computer games remains something to be embarrassed about. I have friends who look down on me for having an interest in them [/Q --end Shazbut wrote--]

Sorry, but those aren't great friends, then. I have a friend who's obsessed with collecting coins. How stupid is that? At least I'm having fun, while playing the games. :-) But does it makes him any less of a person, especially in the eyes of his friends?

I don't hide the fact that I'm a gamer, in fact I talk passionately about it to everyone who's willing to listen. And since I'm not talking boobs, guns or incredible physics, some people are becoming interested and ask for those unbelievable artsy games I speak of.

[Q --start Shazbut wrote--] For every Last Express, there's 50 games where you play make-believe creatures shooting each other with lazer beams in the future. [/Q --end Shazbut wrote--]

And among those 50 games there are at least five worthy of a closer look.

Unicorn Lynx (181775) on 5/21/2008 9:19 AM · Permalink · Report

Amen to that.

worldwideweird (29) on 5/21/2008 11:59 AM · Permalink · Report

And Amen again.

You definitely have to look carefully, and not only regard current titles if you want to have something (at least slightly) intelligent to play. Good "art" books and films have rarely enough entered top ten rankings and at the time of Dostojewskij "ordinary" people couldn't even read, let alone understand a single sentence of "Brothers Karamasov". You had to look hard then, you have to look hard now. Moreover, "Brothers Karamasov" emerged out of a thousands of years long history of writing. Considering the thirty something years computer games have been around, I think they're doing pretty well, at least some of them.

As for the looking-down on gamers, well, forget it. The people who look down on gamers as being loosers and nerds will most likely be the exact same guys n girls who watch the most detestable junk on television 24/7, take the third "Matrix" movie for high art and think that policy is a contagious illness. Just be a gamer, be (and stay) cool and, hopefully, perception will change over time. And what was the quality difference between most (top-ten) games and (most) top-ten movies or (most) top-ten novels again?

I have a lot of friends who never played any games and actually got a few of them to give it a try. One of them is playing "Pathologic" just now and loves every minute of it. But even if they don't play games they totally accept me doing it. You just have to get them to see beyond common prejudices and to regard games as a medium as any other: there'll always be quazillions of crap, but there'll always be great stuff as well.

MichaelPalin (1414) on 5/21/2008 12:52 PM · Permalink · Report

[Q --start worldwideweird wrote--]One of them is playing "Pathologic" just now and loves every minute of it. [/Q --end worldwideweird wrote--]

I feel ashamed now, I still have to retake that game after my first unsuccessful try.

You have very nice friends.

Zovni (10504) on 5/27/2008 8:30 PM · Permalink · Report

[Q --start worldwideweird wrote--] One of them is playing "Pathologic" just now and loves every minute of it. [/Q --end worldwideweird wrote--]

That guy sure has a lot of time on his hands.

worldwideweird (29) on 5/27/2008 10:28 PM · Permalink · Report

No, he hasn't. I'm not sure if he's gonna finish the game, as I said he's actually not into games at all. He just tried it for a couple of hours and liked what he got so far.

You on the other hand...how do you manage? When did you get the time to play hundreds of games AND write a review for each one?

Zovni (10504) on 5/28/2008 1:27 AM · Permalink · Report

Well that explains it, and no matter how many games I can finish and review, I still couldn't make enough time to finish that jogging-simulator.

worldwideweird (29) on 5/28/2008 12:38 PM · Permalink · Report

I don't think that "Pathologic" is a jogging-simulator at all, but there you go with differences of opinion.

Indra was here (20755) on 5/25/2008 6:29 PM · edited · Permalink · Report

[Q --start Shazbut wrote--] I'm so sick of computer games. I think they're shit, and I want to give them up. [/Q --end Shazbut wrote--]

Someone just reached enlightment. Go meet girls and get a life. Yay!

Playing computer games remains something to be embarrassed about. I have friends who look down on me for having an interest in them and my girlfriend was embarrassed for me when I admitted that I ocassionally wrote about games on the internet. I can't blame her.

As a gamer growing up, I identified that the "nerd" will have a problem adapting to the social standard. Thus, in order to anticipate that...a "nerd" must balance his or herself with other acceptable standards. Some of my "nerd" friends, were either top of their class, top at sports...or just plain rich. Me, I was a good story teller and ended up being one of the best debaters in my university...when I'm in the mood.

If your just a "nerd" without any other qualities, then you deserve to be embarrased. Not because you are a nerd, but because you don't have any other qualities that define you. Me, I'm a nerd...but I could still physically clobber any other person looking at me funny...friends who don't like what I do...aren't called friends. They're called "people I used to know."

micnictic (387) on 5/25/2008 9:54 PM · edited · Permalink · Report

I'm not sure, whether I have any other qualities, but I still like being a nerd. Call me a nerd and I'm proud to belong to the interesting part of humanity. It's a compliment.

Indra was here (20755) on 5/26/2008 8:49 PM · Permalink · Report

[Q --start Richard Smoker wrote--]Call me a nerd and I'm proud to belong to the interesting part of humanity. It's a compliment. [/Q --end Richard Smoker wrote--]

Which is an entirely different setting. The aforementioned post only applies to nerds who also need some other form of social actualization. If you're a nerd and really don't care what other people think...then it does not apply.

J. P. Gray (115) on 5/26/2008 1:45 AM · Permalink · Report

One other point for the "like our fathers did" side of things--lots of those outdoorsy types had "guilty" pleasures in wholly passive entertainment, and wasted many hours in the pursuit thereof. How many dads obsessed over football (regular or American) or other sports minutiae and statistics, "wasted" hours watching the games, went to the cinema, read pulp crime/mystery novels, etc.? More active hobbies (games) also played a role in their lives, especially poker in my country (USA)--poker night was a proud and time-honored dad tradition. The "nerd" social patina attached to computers has unfortunately infected computer games as a hobby, but logically computer gaming is no more wasteful a hobby than sitting in front of the TV for all the games of the US baseball World Series, or intensely following football from the local level all the way to World Cup. Reading a pulp crime novel or thriller can take more or less as much time out of one's day as gaming, and I've seen game stories more effective than the flippin' Da Vinci Code, for example. :-D

So by comparison I don't think "waste of time" hobbies are all that different today. Maybe I'm getting too big picture about it, but it seems to me the same sort of thing.

Indra was here (20755) on 5/26/2008 8:51 PM · edited · Permalink · Report

My dad used to shoot communists. His father (Grandad) butchered the Dutch. His father (Great Grandad) ate everyone else. So I'm practically first generation gamer. :p

Makes me feel kinda like a wimp in comparison though. :p

Zovni (10504) on 5/27/2008 8:29 PM · Permalink · Report

Well TL:DR to most of the posts below this but the sad reality is that you are right in your observations. The only advice I can give you is that if you build your life around games then you are bound to despair. So don't.

Unicorn Lynx (181775) on 5/28/2008 8:04 AM · Permalink · Report

The only advice I can give you is that if you build your life around games then you are bound to despair.

There is a huge substantial difference between building your life around something and having a hobby. Sure, a great hobby is an important part of your life, but I don't think there is anyone here who builds his life exclusively around games. That would be madness, of course.

But this still doesn't make games shit. If a person is weak enough to control his addiction to games, he shouldn't blame games for that. Same way as if you drink too much alcohol, it's your fault, not alcohol's. In small quantities, alcohol is a healthy product.

Zovni (10504) on 5/28/2008 2:01 PM · Permalink · Report

If he's gotten to the point where he finds himself physically disgusted by the constantly regurgitated bikini-armors, second rate fantasy crap and macho warrior posturing then he's officially caring way too much about it and I would advice him to take a breather.

Unicorn Lynx (181775) on 5/28/2008 4:12 PM · Permalink · Report

Oh, I see what you mean. That's an interesting interpretation. I totally agree that getting depressed because of crappy game themes is over-reaction. I guess Shazbut was expecting too much from games. Then again, I haven't yet encountered a single genre in any art that was not full of crappy products. Games are no exception.

I mean, as a musician, what should I do when I see that trashy pop singers rule the world? Kill myself? Gotta accept the inevitable fact that crap exists and that it is often stronger than the good stuff. And that's my profession, kinda more important than the hobby of playing video games :)

Shazbut (163) on 5/29/2008 10:35 PM · Permalink · Report

Thanks for all the advice, etc. Would that I had the time to visit these forums more often.

Some of you are reminding me that games are fun, which, having been stabbing around at freeware adventures and indie demos for over half a year, is something I had actually forgotten. The fact that the 'core mechanic' of a game, for want of a better term, is often great fun, seems to be enough to keep you guys playing even when the 'style', for want of a better term, is geared to appeal to man-children. Many of you accept this and are telling me to to chill out about it, which I'm sure is good advice since there's nothing I can do. It still seems to me though, to use a terrible analogy, as if...well...imagine if the game of tennis was somehow designed so that you had to wear a wig and big flappy shoes when playing it. The game, the actual game, would still be fun, but the wig and shoes would make you look like a tit. I'm just questioning the wig and shoes. I'm just questioning the orcs and AK-47s. I don't want games to get all weird and "arty" or whatever, just more mature. I know I'm not alone. On the Manifesto Games site, their most successful game has been The Shivah, which is an adventure game starring a rabbi. Also up there is PeaceMaker, which is about the Israeli-Palestine conflict. This has got to count for something.

It's not the quality of the game experience I'm bashing. Plenty of good games get released. I'm just sick of what they're dressed up in a little bit more than you are. I don't think wanting this to change is expecting too much from games. We say computer games are a young medium, and they are, but, taking The Great Train Robbery (1903) to be the first proper movie, 24 years later came Sunrise. 24 years after A Colossal Cave Adventure ( the first adventure game?) and we have Escape From Monkey Island.

There has always been movies, books, music, and theatre to appeal to adults. There still is. With games it's a LOT harder. I think my beef is due to no-one having figured out how to do really do interactive fiction and in this day and age, most developers have given up trying. If this wasn't the case, if people bought The Last Express out of sheer principle, then there might be exactly what I'm looking for on the shelves right now, comfortably alongside Quake 4 and Tetris, which will still have their places.

But like I say, I don't want to give up games. They aren't the focus of my life. I'm an actor and musician. Games are a hobby. It just saddens me that I'm drifting away so much. I've been waiting more than half a year for a game to come out which interests me. I can't do anything about that lack of interest either.

Indy, I think, implied I was a nerd. I didn't say I was a nerd. This appears to me to be a way of keeping me in the fold. If you assume I'm a nerd because I play games then that confirms exactly my problem. Playing games shouldn't go hand in hand with the idea that people who do so must be pallid schizoids who are terrified of women and the outdoors.

Plenty of you made other points which I'll hopefully get round to discussing.

micnictic (387) on 5/30/2008 1:20 AM · edited · Permalink · Report

[Q --start Shazbut wrote--] Indy, I think, implied I was a nerd. I didn't say I was a nerd. This appears to me to be a way of keeping me in the fold. If you assume I'm a nerd because I play games then that confirms exactly my problem. Playing games shouldn't go hand in hand with the idea that people who do so must be pallid schizoids who are terrified of women and the outdoors. [/Q --end Shazbut wrote--]

Is that your definition of a nerd? Then I withdraw my statement, that it's cool to be a nerd. For me this rather meant being different from the majority. Actually this is something I suffered depressions from, when I was younger. Always tried to act like the other and it never worked. Then I thought, maybe being different is cool. Stopped hiding who I am and everything became better. Actually found out, that not all the other people are clones, either...

Indra was here (20755) on 6/3/2008 6:58 PM · Permalink · Report

[Q2 --start Shazbut wrote--] Indy, I think, implied I was a nerd. I didn't say I was a nerd. This appears to me to be a way of keeping me in the fold. If you assume I'm a nerd because I play games then that confirms exactly my problem. Playing games shouldn't go hand in hand with the idea that people who do so must be pallid schizoids who are terrified of women and the outdoors. [/Q2 --end Shazbut wrote--]

Who the hell is Indy? Anyways, the problem is...er...your aforementioned problem only becomes a problem...if you were a nerd. There are some exceptions to nerdism (some known spesimens actually don't burn when they are exposed to sunlight!), but the nerd or in technical terms "hardcore gamer without a social life due to time consumption on games", would identify your problem AS a problem. A non-nerd would not: it's a game...big deal...better things to do...etc.