Forums > Game Forums > The Legend of Zelda > RPG Controversy
SharkD (425) on 10/23/2007 3:07 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
There's some controversy as to whether The Legend of Zelda is an RPG. Here's a good article on the subject:
http://gamedesign.wikidot.com/zelda-is-not-an-rpg
Personally, I don't think it is one.
Indra was here (20756) on 10/23/2007 4:28 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
Quote from article: "Ever since Final Fantasy VII made RPGs popular in the main stream..."
Who IS this idiot?
Of course Zelda is an RPG. RPGs back then were only about getting items and bashing monsters. Most didn't even have character development. Years past, RPGs become more complex, to the no-brainer RPG's we now call "action-RPGs". Saying Zelda isn't an RPG is like saying Zork isn't an adventure game (but it doesn't have any graphics...what adventure game doesn't have graphics?). Gah.
Which reminds me I need to play Rogue da Adventure Game again.
General Error (4329) on 10/24/2007 12:25 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Indra Depari of the Clan Depari wrote--]Which reminds me I need to play Rogue da Adventure Game again. [/Q --end Indra Depari of the Clan Depari wrote--]
Of course you have to play it again! We all have to! It teaches us humility (more than even Ultima IV). And fear of capital T's, of course.
Ace of Sevens (4479) on 10/24/2007 4:39 PM · Permalink · Report
Playing RPGs may have mostly ivolved bashing monsters but the defining element of RPGS is and has been character development. Getting more hearts and equipment doesn't qualify unless Metroid is also an RPG. It has nothing to do with money and shoopkeepers.
Indra was here (20756) on 10/24/2007 5:30 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Ace of Sevens wrote--]Playing RPGs may have mostly ivolved bashing monsters but the defining element of RPGS is and has been character development. Getting more hearts and equipment doesn't qualify unless Metroid is also an RPG. It has nothing to do with money and shoopkeepers. [/Q --end Ace of Sevens wrote--]
Tell that to Bard's Tale. That game got trashed by RPG fanbois (like myself) not for its lack of character development (which by the way isn't such a big deal in classic RPGs as far as AD&D is concerned), but for the lack of buying and selling items/loot.
<hr />Additional note: BTW, does Bard's Tale (the latest one) actually have anything to do with the Bard's Tale Trilogy?
The Fabulous King (1332) on 10/25/2007 11:38 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
Other than and having bard's special musical spells, a team leaded by a guy from the original development team of Bard's Tale and focusing specially on the class of Bard, not much really.
You once told me, that it angers you when a new game in the series introduces some drastic changes in gameplay. Well, firstly this game has voice-acting which also means coherent dialogue ("Oh my god!!! They ruined those wonderful cryptic nonsense messages like "I am not the sage!"), then top-down graphics ("Oh my god!! They ruined the wonderful artistic perspective of the originals!!!"), the game has auto-map ("What travesty is this!?I don't have to spend months on drawing my own maps? B L A S P H E M Y!"), no dungeons that take a month to solve ("NO GAMEPLAY!!!"), weird ambiguous setting ("Did it take place in Scotland, or in Greece at the Time of the New Testament?") replaced by a historical Orkney Islands ("I expected Bard's Tale, not Mel Gibson lookalikes suffering from flatulence while yelling "FREEDOM!!!" to innocent by-passers!"), real-time combat with real-time mouse clicking ("Where's the C for Cast Spells and... what you mean I have to click on my mouse all the time!!! ), you cast spells by clicking on icons, ("What!? No ROZL!?") musical cutscenes ("NO GAMEPLAY!!!"), Sierra-style banter between the Narrator and the Protagonist ("AARRRGGHHH!!!! They force on me their own defined characters and rob me the chance to imagine high-class hentai in a fantasyland!!! In Indonesia, the makers of this game would be hanged, drawn and quartered.").... I'm merely jesting.
Anyway, it's a comedy hack and slash game starring Cary Elwes (the guy playing Robin Hood in Robin Hood and Men in Tights.)
Indra was here (20756) on 10/26/2007 4:07 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Drunken Irishman wrote--] You once told me, that it angers you when a new game in the series introduces some drastic changes in gameplay. [/Q --end Drunken Irishman wrote--]
Depends on how the "drastic" element effects the series, in this case "the fans". I once said that making certain drastic changes usually is a gamble for developers, since you don't know the reaction of the fans. New gamers to the series wouldn't care less, but for old fans its like a reading 2 book series from the same author whom you liked and suddenly the 3rd series is written by a new author. That new author better provide something better or else you'll have some very pissed nerds.
Final Fantasy is a very good example in this regard. That series keeps getting a facelift to a point that it seems to be a tradition. FF8 was practically slaughtered by FF7 fans, for example.
mobiusclimber (235) on 10/28/2007 12:59 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Indra Depari of the Clan Depari wrote--]
Final Fantasy is a very good example in this regard. That series keeps getting a facelift to a point that it seems to be a tradition. FF8 was practically slaughtered by FF7 fans, for example. [/Q --end Indra Depari of the Clan Depari wrote--]
yet ff6 fans didn't slaughter ff7. ff1 fans didn't slaughter ff2... or 4, depending on where they were. cough the problem w/ 8 runs a little bit deeper than facelift. ff8 is basically the emo of the series. if you can't stand fall out boy, you won't like the plot.
SharkD (425) on 10/25/2007 9:31 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Indra Depari of the Clan Depari wrote--]Quote from article: "Ever since Final Fantasy VII made RPGs popular in the main stream..."
Who IS this idiot? [/Q --end Indra Depari of the Clan Depari wrote--] What exactly is wrong with this statement?
See here. Final Fantasy is #4 on the list, right after The Sims. The only other RPGs on the list are Pokemon and Kingdom Hearts.
Don't expect everyone to be a nerd like you.
DJP Mom (11333) on 10/25/2007 11:01 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start SharkD wrote--] [Q2 --start Indra Depari of the Clan Depari wrote--]Quote from article: "Ever since Final Fantasy VII made RPGs popular in the main stream..."
Who IS this idiot? [/Q2 --end Indra Depari of the Clan Depari wrote--] What exactly is wrong with this statement?
See here. Final Fantasy is #4 on the list, right after The Sims. The only other RPGs on the list are Pokemon and Kingdom Hearts.
Don't expect everyone to be a nerd like you. [/Q --end SharkD wrote--] Wait - because the Final Fantasy franchise sold 75 million copies, thus Final Fantasy VII made RPGs popular in the main stream?
Игги Друге (46653) on 10/25/2007 11:05 PM · Permalink · Report
Yes, that is the definition of the word "mainstream".
mobiusclimber (235) on 10/26/2007 3:36 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start DJP Mom wrote--]Okay, I'll put that in my dictionary...oh wait, I don't need to, we have...Wikipedia! [/Q --end DJP Mom wrote--]
not to be an ass (i feel like i've made myself into enough of one lately) but if you look up final fantasy vii in wikipedia, it basically states in the third paragraph that ff7 was responsible for creating mainstream appeal for rpgs, or words to that effect.
actually, screw it, i'll go ahead and quote the article: "A major critical and commercial success, the game remains arguably the most popular title in the series,[7][8][9] and is often credited with allowing console-style RPGs to achieve mainstream success outside Japan.[8]"
The Fabulous King (1332) on 10/26/2007 3:47 AM · Permalink · Report
...allowing console-style RPGs...
Case rested.
Ace of Sevens (4479) on 10/26/2007 3:57 AM · Permalink · Report
PC-style RPGs never have achieved mainstream success if that's what you're getting at.
The Fabulous King (1332) on 10/26/2007 4:02 AM · edited · Permalink · Report
cough Oblivion cough
Though it's a consolized version of PC-style RPG's.
Hmm...
Ace of Sevens (4479) on 10/26/2007 4:32 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Drunken Irishman wrote--]cough Oblivion cough
Though it's a consolized version of PC-style RPG's.
Hmm... [/Q --end Drunken Irishman wrote--]
Having one series catch on doesn't really make the genre mainstream. When the marker gets flooded with clones, then I'll grant this point.
SharkD (425) on 10/26/2007 10:28 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Drunken Irishman wrote--]cough Oblivion cough
Though it's a consolized version of PC-style RPG's.
Hmm... [/Q --end Drunken Irishman wrote--] I believe that Final Fantasy VII was released before Oblivion (correct me if I'm wrong because you know, oh, so much more than me).
The Fabulous King (1332) on 10/26/2007 5:19 PM · Permalink · Report
SharkD:"I believe that Final Fantasy VII was released before Oblivion (correct me if I'm wrong because you know, oh, so much more than me)."
I see no reason for sarcasm, since I only answered to the claim that PC RPG's have never claimed a mainstream success.
I wasn't even aware of your existence since I thought I was bantering with Ace of Sevens.
Indra was here (20756) on 10/26/2007 4:22 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Ace of Sevens wrote--]PC-style RPGs never have achieved mainstream success if that's what you're getting at. [/Q --end Ace of Sevens wrote--]
Yes it has. The RPG is called Microsoft windows and applications.
- Roleplaying: Everytime your using it at the office and pretending to work.
- Storyline: Help. Press F1. How the !#@!$!@ do you use this thing?
- Character development: Depending on whose character your talking about: [1] Yours trying to understand how MS Excel works [2] Developing a document map for MS word [3] Trying to speed up the darn CPU with Windows Millenium.
- Monsters: Many monsters. Commonly known as viruses .
- Equipment: Antiviruses, utilities, etc.
- Adventuring: Taking a stroll down the registry and getting lost.
Though my personal favorite RPG is still DOS 3.3. ASCII characters with no graphics!
Indra was here (20756) on 10/26/2007 4:02 AM · edited · Permalink · Report
[Q --start SharkD wrote--] Don't expect everyone to be a nerd like you. [/Q --end SharkD wrote--]
Someone's hanging out in the wrong website....hahaha.
My point is, that saying FF7 is the reason why RPG's suddenly become "mainstream" though technically to a certain point may be true, is in fact insulting to many RPG fans who made it possible for the genre to exist for this day. Many FF fans still don't even know what a dang RPG is (many teenagers I've met).
But then again, the console platform in the classical days didn't have many RPGs worth mentioning. PC RPGs however...
Try insulting any RPG DOS games here and see what happens...
Final note: Quoting wikipedia as an official reference of undisputed fact is....some other MG user may know better words than I do. Hehe...
Pseudo_Intellectual (66360) on 10/26/2007 5:45 AM · Permalink · Report
some other MG user may know better words than I do.
Yes, but it wouldn't be civil to use them in public 8)
SharkD (425) on 10/26/2007 10:32 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Indra Depari of the Clan Depari wrote--] Final note: Quoting wikipedia as an official reference of undisputed fact is....some other MG user may know better words than I do. Hehe... [/Q --end Indra Depari of the Clan Depari wrote--] The author of the article does back up the statement with a source.
DJP Mom (11333) on 10/26/2007 12:03 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start SharkD wrote--] [Q2 --start Indra Depari of the Clan Depari wrote--] Final note: Quoting wikipedia as an official reference of undisputed fact is....some other MG user may know better words than I do. Hehe... [/Q2 --end Indra Depari of the Clan Depari wrote--] The author of the article does back up the statement with a source. [/Q --end SharkD wrote--] I'm not about to dispute the popularity of FF7, however - the Wikipedia author needs to do a much better job of backing up his quote. Saying it is "often credited" and justifying that with one remark in 1UP is pretty iffy. As a Wikipedia frequent flyer you should know that, too.
Sciere (930479) on 10/26/2007 12:23 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
That's sometimes hard to back up or explain when it's common knowledge for someone experienced with the matter. To quote bash.org:
[CtrlAltDestroy] Here is my impression of Wikipedia.
[CtrlAltDestroy] "There are five fingers on the human hand [citation needed]"
The Fabulous King (1332) on 10/26/2007 5:21 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Indra Depari of the Clan Depari wrote--] Many FF fans still don't even know what a dang RPG is (many teenagers I've met). [/Q --end Indra Depari of the Clan Depari wrote--] Exactly. And not only teenagers.
And to make this clear before anyone else misinterprets my posts, I am not disputing Final Fantasy's 7 popularity. I'm just pointing at the interesting question raised here by Indra that how many of those 10 million players of FF7 actually know what an RPG is.
Игги Друге (46653) on 10/26/2007 6:20 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Indra Depari of the Clan Depari wrote--] My point is, that saying FF7 is the reason why RPG's suddenly become "mainstream" though technically to a certain point may be true, is in fact insulting to many RPG fans who made it possible for the genre to exist for this day. Many FF fans still don't even know what a dang RPG is (many teenagers I've met). [/Q --end Indra Depari of the Clan Depari wrote--] Why would that be insulting to anyone?
Pseudo_Intellectual (66360) on 10/26/2007 7:11 PM · Permalink · Report
What?? RPG doesn't mean "contains a Really Pretty Guy?"
Mark Gaarder on 10/27/2007 10:16 PM · Permalink · Report
Actually, there is much controversy over whether or not LOZ is an RPG. By definition, an RPG is a game where you can play as different characters, and in all of the GOOD Legend of Zelda games (fake coughs Phillips CD-I SUCKS), you are always playing as Link.
Also, you shouldn't talk like people are stupid or you might get yourself GANON-BANNED!
Pseudo_Intellectual (66360) on 10/29/2007 9:51 AM · Permalink · Report
By definition, an RPG is a game where you can play as different characters
Maybe, but not by a universally agreed-upon definition 8)
Terok Nor (41955) on 10/24/2007 1:37 PM · Permalink · Report
I absolutely agree that Zelda is not an RPG. Computer RPGs, from the very first ones (Dunjonquest, Ultima, Wizardry) had certain elements from pen-and-paper: experience points, levels, classes, parties, stats. An RPG doesn't need all of those to qualify as an RPG, but at least some. And advancement of either levels or stats or something similar is basically a requirement for RPGs.
Zelda has none of that. The only thing you can 'advance' is your health points. And you can find 4 different weapons or so. I can do the same thing in Doom. Doesn't make it an RPG.
The Moby definition says: "any game for which character development is the main driving gameplay mechanic." That doesn't apply to Zelda.
Indra was here (20756) on 10/24/2007 4:18 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Terok Nor wrote--] And you can find 4 different weapons or so. I can do the same thing in Doom.
The Moby definition says: "any game for which character development is the main driving gameplay mechanic." That doesn't apply to Zelda. [/Q --end Terok Nor wrote--]
If Doom had a shopkeeper that would let you buy and sell stuff, Doom would be an RPG. Remember that this was during a time when game genre's were still in development. By today standards, Zelda would probably dubbed as an "action-adventure". But at that time, it couldn't be an action game, since it was slower than Mario, it couldn't be an adventure game since King's Quest and even earlier Interactive Fiction games were out there.
And most importantly, remember this was a console game, not a PC game. Again, back then if any game even remotely resembled AD&D or Lord of the Rings in a medieval setting, where you bash monsters, have an inventory, get to buy/sell stuff, it was an RPG.
The Moby definition says: "any game for which character development is the main driving gameplay mechanic."
We sure hell know that the Sims isn't a dang RPG. But qualifies for that definition. We also know that the MG genre system needs a total overhaul.
Unless of course the you can buy swords and clobber you're neigbours, I think I'd actually dig the Sims :p
Terok Nor (41955) on 10/24/2007 4:28 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Indra Depari of the Clan Depari wrote--] If Doom had a shopkeeper that would let you buy and sell stuff, Doom would be an RPG. Remember that this was during a time when game genre's were still in development. [/Q --end Indra Depari of the Clan Depari wrote--] What an RPG was was clearly defined, 5-6 years before Zelda was released (see Ultima, Wizardry, Dunjonquest).
[Q --start Indra Depari of the Clan Depari wrote--] By today standards, Zelda would probably dubbed as an "action-adventure". [/Q --end Indra Depari of the Clan Depari wrote--] It was called that by contemporary standards. I have reviews from 1987 which call it exactly that. It's only called an RPG by people who don't know what an RPG is.
Indra was here (20756) on 10/24/2007 5:52 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Terok Nor wrote--] It was called that by contemporary standards. I have reviews from 1987 which call it exactly that. It's only called an RPG by people who don't know what an RPG is. [/Q --end Terok Nor wrote--]
Does it have monsters? Yep.
Does it have character development? Yep. Barely.
Does it have an inventory system?Yep.
Does it have sub-quests/puzzles to solve?
Yep.
Are you forced to move in a linear direction like other platform games?Nope.
Can you buy items? Yep. [Edit: My mistake, pointed out by Mobius]
Do I actually care? Nope.
And yet the majority of RPG gamers, who obviously have no idea what an RPG is, still dub the game an RPG. Why do I brashly claim the majority? Simply because there is someone there nerdy enough to whine that Zelda isn't an RPG.
Hell, I still don't think Myst is an adventure game, but what do I know? Genre's develop depending on how many people support the idea. And with all those hybrids going on today, a lot of games already are confusing enough being dubbed an Action Adventure Strategy RPG Simulation game.
If the majority of people say Zelda's an RPG, then its a freakin RPG. Welcome to social compromise.
Still have no idea why I'm even bothering wasting my time talking about a console RPG. Eww. Only console games have these stupid discussions.
SharkD (425) on 10/25/2007 9:31 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Indra Depari of the Clan Depari wrote--] And yet the majority of RPG gamers, who obviously have no idea what an RPG is, still dub the game an RPG. Why do I brashly claim the majority? Simply because there is someone there nerdy enough to whine that Zelda isn't an RPG. [/Q --end Indra Depari of the Clan Depari wrote--]
I googled "zelda rpg" and got 2,410,000 hits. This includes people arguing that Zelda is not an RPG, as well as real (fan-made) RPGs set in the Zelda universe and The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past, which may be an RPG. I also googled "Zelda action adventure", a much narrower query since it contained three words instead fo two, and got 2,240,000 hits. Not a big disparity.
SharkD (425) on 10/28/2007 10:30 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
I was supporting an existing argument that it is a popularly held opinion that Zelda is an RPG, and that Zelda, in turn, influenced the development of the Action RPG genre. One of the articles I cited is the very same article that appears in the first post of this thread.
SharkD (425) on 10/24/2007 4:57 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Terok Nor wrote--]Computer RPGs, from the very first ones (Dunjonquest, Ultima, Wizardry) had certain elements from pen-and-paper: experience points, levels, classes, parties, stats. [/Q --end Terok Nor wrote--]
Check out dnd, the very first CRPG. [edit: well, the first CRPG that is still extant.]
mobiusclimber (235) on 10/24/2007 6:28 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
the majority of gamers DON'T consider zelda to be an rpg. mobygames is one of the few places to call it an rpg. but this is a debate that has been going on for as long as rpgs have been thought of as their own genre.
also...
[quote]Does it have monsters? Yep. Does it have character development? Yep. Barely. Does it have an inventory system?Yep. Does it have sub-quests/puzzles to solve? Yep. Are you forced to move in a linear direction like other platform games?Nope. Can you buy and sell items? Yep. Do I actually care? Nope.[/quote]
this is wrong. you can buy some items but not sell them. it doesn't have character development as far as story is concerned, nor does it have more stat-based character development than health, which any number of non-rpgs also have.
mobiusclimber (235) on 10/25/2007 3:55 PM · Permalink · Report
it did that kind of automatically. i just copied and pasted the words i wanted in it and then did quotes around it.
Indra was here (20756) on 10/26/2007 4:10 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start mobiusclimber wrote--]it did that kind of automatically. i just copied and pasted the words i wanted in it and then did quotes around it. [/Q --end mobiusclimber wrote--]
It tends to do that. You'll figure it out sooner or later when you edit the html.
mobiusclimber (235) on 10/26/2007 8:03 PM · Permalink · Report
oh i know why it did that, i just can't be bothered to try to fix it.
Pseudo_Intellectual (66360) on 10/26/2007 8:33 PM · Permalink · Report
That's what we like to see in forums, people who own up to not being able to be bothered.
mobiusclimber (235) on 10/31/2007 1:22 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Pseudo_Intellectual wrote--]That's what we like to see in forums, people who own up to not being able to be bothered. [/Q --end Pseudo_Intellectual wrote--]
well geez if i had to fix ALL my mistakes i'd be here all night. XP