Forums > MobyGames > MobyGames showing its age...
MegamanX64 (15996) on 6/7/2010 5:54 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
I was starting the credit wizard today as usual, and I happened to read the text on the page. And it struck me that this text does not exactly make MobyGames sound like a modern website, even though it is using "advanced browser features"...
This wizard uses advanced browser features and JavaScript to help the data entry process. We recommend that you use Internet Explorer 5.0 or higher or Netscape 6.0 or higher. While it works with other browsers, some features might be disabled and same data entry features might be limited.
Probably the only website in the world currently recommending IE5 :-)
Some weeks ago I searched for my name. Giant Bomb turned up before MobyGames. Even though they had my name, the did not have any games where I am credited. MobyGames has 30+ games. Evidently they have much better SEO.
There's been several threads about updating the website. I personally don't really care, but things like this does not help with the reputation.
Perhaps it's time to set up a task force of web designers to update the site (including some of the contribution wizards). It's not something that can be done in a weekend, but I think it's time to have a staff of active developers just as we have contributors and approvers.
MZ per X (3010) on 6/7/2010 6:50 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start MegamanX64 wrote--]Perhaps it's time to set up a task force of web designers to update the site (including some of the contribution wizards). It's not something that can be done in a weekend, but I think it's time to have a staff of active developers just as we have contributors and approvers. [/Q --end MegamanX64 wrote--] sigh
The MobyGods just need to take the final step and give this site into the hands of the community, goddammit. All of the gripes, all of the problems would dissolve in no time.
Foxhack (31931) on 6/7/2010 9:43 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start MZ per X wrote--] The MobyGods just need to take the final step and give this site into the hands of the community, goddammit. All of the gripes, all of the problems would dissolve in no time. [/Q --end MZ per X wrote--]Ahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
dies
Unicorn Lynx (180491) on 6/8/2010 5:00 AM · Permalink · Report
MobyGames Joke:
GameFAQs, Giant Bomb, and MobyGames users talk to God. GameFAQ users ask: "Almighty, when will our site finally abolish the awful forums, console bias, cluttered and incorrect info, and turn into a real nr. 1 gaming site?" God says: "in 100 years". GameFAQs users say: "Oh no, we won't be alive to see that!", sit down and cry.
Then Giant Bomb users ask: "Oh God, when will our site stop stealing stuff, have a better design, and stop being so generally unlikeable?" God says: "in 1000 years". Giant Bomb users say: "Oh no, even our grandchildren won't be alive to see that!", sit down and cry.
Then finally MobyGames users ask: "Lord of the Universe, when will our site add missing platforms that have been promised such a long time ago, correct the thousand minor issues that should be so easy to correct, and have an approval speed that doesn't drive us insane?" God sits down and cries.
Sicarius (61484) on 6/8/2010 12:58 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
Why are two guys who don't have the time and/or mostly don't even care that much about MobyGames anymore still in charge of the project? Because they pay the bills? Thanks but fuck you. I'd rather pay them myself and finally see some progress around here instead of the endless discussions and having good people leaving/burning out because two guys just can't get the stick out of their ass, use the community they created and do something productive with it. I mean wouldn't that make them also feel better not constantly reading complains and such?
Yes, this post may seem harsh but I'm so sick of seeing people pouring hours and hours into a project which dies a little more every day. And don't give me that bullshit about "but the number of contributions is higher than ever" - we all know there are many, many problems besides waiting for new platforms being added.
EDITH: By "using the community" I of course don't mean "go wikipedia". I mean ask for help. Let's find 5-6 dedicated people with the right experience and finally tame that horse called "re-design" because that's the main problem that keeps MobyGames back. Not that it looks a bit dated, but the underlying architecture is more than 10 years old and is in serious need of an extensive upgrade. That's nothing that can be done in a day or a week but in my opinion it has to be done if MG is supposed to have even the slightest chance of staying meaningful.
Unicorn Lynx (180491) on 6/8/2010 2:24 PM · Permalink · Report
Yes, this post may seem harsh but I'm so sick of seeing people pouring hours and hours into a project which dies a little more every day. And don't give me that bullshit about "but the number of contributions is higher than ever" - we all know there are many, many problems besides waiting for new platforms being added.
EDITH: By "using the community" I of course don't mean "go wikipedia". I mean ask for help. Let's find 5-6 dedicated people with the right experience and finally tame that horse called "re-design" because that's the main problem that keeps MobyGames back. Not that it looks a bit dated, but the underlying architecture is more than 10 years old and is in serious need of an extensive upgrade. That's nothing that can be done in a day or a week but in my opinion it has to be done if MG is supposed to have even the slightest chance of staying meaningful.
I'm with you, bro. Totally agree. Like I said - the MobyBosses fall into 2 categories - those who can do, but don't want to; and those who want to, but can't.
MZ per X (3010) on 6/8/2010 3:44 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Sicarius wrote--]...use the community they created and do something productive with it. [/Q --end Sicarius wrote--] Let's think a bit further.
It takes seven people to found a German non-profit, and it costs around 100 Euro. Would it make sense to have such a legal entity that tries to bid for taking over the IP called "MobyGames", and collect the money needed for this?
GAMEBOY COLOR! (1989) on 6/8/2010 4:29 PM · Permalink · Report
I have gotten the feeling Moby has been adrift for a while, and if Brian and Jim aren't that interested anymore, they should hand it over to somebody else. But has anybody actually talked to them lately ? I would find out what exactly is going on before planning to buy MG from them, if they would even do that. If somebody has, please speak up.
formercontrib (157685) on 6/8/2010 6:02 PM · Permalink · Report
So, before it like so often, came to those senseless and worthless politican-like talking in platitudes...
Step 1 is done.
Step 2 is in the works: MegamanX64 has declared himself kindly ready to organize a bunch of web designers. Contact MZ per X about the financial budget he is willing to give you to pay those guys 12 months a year. Meanwhile MZ per X should think about the amount of money he is willing to pay to get MobyGames with all its content - and talk to Brian, Jim and the other owners of the site - and submit an offer for it.
When you 2 guys are finished with those little peanuts things - i would think for winners like you this shouldn't last longer than ... 4 weeks, that's more than enough time.
Then you can talk to those still willing to work as volunteers for you too. Keep a wary eye on those boyz+girlz that can be helpful for you. Swashbucklers, wimps and posers should better been avoided.
So, when you both did your homework, it's at the time to think about how to win again some really important members back that left Moby not so long ago. They're can be very helpful for the future.
Okay - so don't waste anymore time. It's at the time for you to walk the talk. The sooner you finish this little bit nothing of homework, the sooner we can start a new era.
Till then we wish you all the best on your mission - and we're looking gladly forward to see your results asap. If your deeds only half as good as your cakeholes, i'm sure you finished those trifles with lightning speed.
Hail to thee - Our thoughts and hopes are with you, please don't dissapoint us!!! our ups and downs are in your hands! :)
Sicarius (61484) on 6/8/2010 6:39 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
Sarcasm - how helpful and productive. But it was to be expected (although not necessarily from you) after my harsh and of course provocating words. The time it took you to rectify our "platitudes" you could've written your own take on the situation. You know, instead of basically dropping "down" to "our" level by writing that post. I'm just saying.
I could of course go into more detail that I actually know the amount of money it takes to create and maintain a high-traffic website and by that actually know what I'm talking about (as opposed to you clearly) but my goal isn't to buy MobyGames. My goal is to get the owners to open up and try to bring MG forward by using the help we offer as it is very clear that they can't handle it. I too want and will do my part if I can in that regard - which also means donating money for such a noble cause if it promises to produce actual results. I do have a bronze star already to prove it.
And even you have to agree that something has to be done and soon and personal attacks won't get us anywhere either - which of course also applies to me. We are grown men, aren't we?
EDITH: I'm going back working on contributions (conviction credits are almost in!) - it's clear, that I'm currently high on emotions :).
formercontrib (157685) on 6/8/2010 7:24 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
Sarcasm? It sounds different when i grab to sarcasm. And it wasn't a quote to your comment too.
I only encouraged the one or other to suit the action to their words spoken. Platitudes - what are the platitudes? To say: Okay, if they say "Everything is crap, i can do it much better, i will buy the site, i want programmers" --- i don't see the platitude to say: "Feel free to do so --- but act and stop this childish whining - because that is the least thing that helps".
Sure, stinks me some things here too. But that's mainly another matter altogether - and does not belong here.
I'm still working - and it's a lot and often hard work for this site, as much as i can - because despite all the weaknesses it had, and most of them are behind the scenery for me - MobyGames it's still the database i believe in - the database that has the most, the best and the comprehensivest information of all. Optics are a matter of taste, it fits my pretences.
And i'm sure - and trust in Sciere and others, if they had the power and the might - and if the site has more support from - for example: developers and publishers, then we had a bunch of webdesigners, of database workers andsoon.
But i'm sure that those few people who "own" this site, don't get rich with it, perhaps i'm wrong and Sciere, Corn Popper, Trixter, Brian Hirt get paid thouands of bucks month for month, but i don't think so.
And it is a fact, that for such jobs (designers, database specialists etc.) it's impossible to get staff for free.
And if others find it sarcastic or not helpful - i don't get a shit about that. Not at MobyGames and not in my real life. Especially not then, when people crying, whining, and all they do - and this does not include you Sicarius, see this reply at the top - is talking big without teeth in their mouth.
It is a volunteer-driven project, everyone can work a lot or not so much for it. But one thing is for me clear like fresh water. Some people - when they talking big, that's not worth for me, i do not count the quality of humans about what they say, but about what they do.
And when such people say: "Everything's shit here, i want this and that and and and...." - this is not a groceteria and before calling others inactive, or incompetent or this sucks and that sucks, and dozens other things suck... everyone should ask "What do i do, what can i do more/better" before.
And it wasn't my idea to start about buying database programmers, it wasn't also not my idea to buy the site - i would do so - but it's too expensive for me.
But always only bla-bla-bla-bla-bla, that makes me sick.
They all can show their potential, their qualities andsoon ---- they started it. I'm old enough to know - that changes, better situations do not come because i hope so. They only can come (except a lot of luck hitting me) if you work hard for it.
And everybody who feels confident that he can do better, should DO IT BETTER - instead of whining like a 6 year old child in the hope that way it's getting the candy.
MZ per X (3010) on 6/8/2010 6:58 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start joyvalley wrote--]Hail to thee - Our thoughts and hopes are with you, please don't dissapoint us!!! our ups and downs are in your hands! :) [/Q --end joyvalley wrote--] Okay, your rant could be shortened to: I don't think this is possible. Which BTW is a typical German attitude I am guilty of, too, from time to time. :o)
It was just a thought open for - hopefully constructive - discussion. My opinion is that the community should legally take over this site and its content, whenever, however. Because it has grown so much bigger than what it was started for.
And quite frankly, I don't think that the founders will ever come back, at least not with the passion and effort needed to further develop this thing.
Игги Друге (46154) on 6/8/2010 5:40 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Sicarius wrote--]Why are two guys who don't have the time and/or mostly don't even care that much about MobyGames anymore still in charge of the project? Because they pay the bills? Thanks but fuck you. I'd rather pay them myself and finally see some progress around here instead of the endless discussions and having good people leaving/burning out because two guys just can't get the stick out of their ass, use the community they created and do something productive with it. I mean wouldn't that make them also feel better not constantly reading complains and such? [/Q --end Sicarius wrote--] I wouldn't put too much Blame on Brian (the one with the hat), since he has been working at some kind of pace on the backend for many years. On the other hand, there is at least one boss character (whose name escapes me) that has hardly shown his face on this site since I first joined. I think it's Trixter. Whoever it is, his major contribution to Mobygames for the last five years has been that he hasn't had interest enough in the site to introduce any new stupid rules.
Sicarius (61484) on 6/8/2010 5:58 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
yeah, I know that at least Brian is still actively doing something progressive but the intend of my post wasn't necessarily to start a blame-war - we all know how that would end - my intend was and is to get my very own frustration out in the open because I fucking care about MobyGames and because I still have a glimer of hope that SOMEONE important out there is actually reading this and starts to use that brain of his and perhaps even starts COMMUNICATING.
formercontrib (157685) on 6/8/2010 7:46 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
I'm very sorry, that you still don't have the time, the interest or something else, do be part of the other side.
I'd seen so many games databases coming and going the last years. Moby still stands the test of time.
And you should not forget, that not everyobody is on your quality level for contributions, there's a lot of modest things in the queues every day.
So i have reservations - how exactly shall such a "Open MobyGames" look in your opinion? How will it look only a few weeks after everyone is able to pump everything into it.
And why will this be helpful for new features, a new look ?
Everyone who wants can do whatever he wants, ever thought about the potentially result. So before such an important thing will happen, that's the day i leave Moby.
Moby's endeavor was always to be serious project ... Crappy informations combined with Pokemon-look was never the aim, and i hope it never will be, because i'm sure then will Moby dives into the web-depths forever....
Sicarius (61484) on 6/8/2010 8:15 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
Like I said - no Wikipedia. The general contribution/approval-system mostly works the way it is with main problem being that besides windows the queues do tend to pile up - at least as far as I can tell. And yes, resisting to become a approver is mainly a time-issue. I'm already sinking enough of it in contributions :).
My idea is to collect a group of dedicated and willing people with the necesarry skills and do a re-design because that is the problem. MobyGames is hundreds of years old in terms of Webdevelopment and requires too much maintenance both from owners and admins side as well as from approvers and contributors to do even the simpelest things like adding a tech-spec. So our goal at the moment shouldn't be crying for new platforms or new tech-specs or something like that. Our cry should be about Brian and such getting together with us, brainstorming and in the end make the of course time-consuming step and actually do it. Like I said that's not a task of a week or a month even. But the way it is now we are basically standing still. The only progress I know of was a a visual prototype by Sciere although I don't really know what happened to it.
I know at the moment its just talk, talk and talk. But the first step has to come from the owners. I only have bad experiences with Corn Popper, Brian never answered any of my PMs or emails and Trickster, well never really had that much contact with him - so from my point of view there's a serious lack in communication. I don't know how Moby works under the hood so I can't offer any advice on how we could maybe improve things for everyone while of course still maintining all the database information. Its a closed system after all. But I know from my experience as a webmaster and by using the site for four years now that the change has to be fundimentally and won't work with just cleaning up the code or something. And I'm also sure that there are people here with the in-depth knowledge who can go under the hood if they have are offered the chance. And I firmely believe, that most of us here who do complain, are actually not just about words but also about action.
To clarify once more: I don't want to open up MobyGames. I want the owners to open up and actively ask for help.
Patrick Bregger (290049) on 6/8/2010 8:28 PM · Permalink · Report
That is not what Sicarius was suggesting. A "Wikipedia" contribution style would be poison (höhö, I almost wrote "gift") to MobyGames.
The suggestion was for the technical side which is clearly the main problem - the structure is kinda working but not really up to the size of the database and "modern" times. A re-structure of the database (especially regarding hard-coded stuff and admin-duties) would use useful but utopical - at least unless someone is willing to pay some serious bucks for a few skilled programmers. Because, let's face it, finding trustworthy people who are willing to work for free (long-time!) is hard - why do you think most "fan games" die? Everyone knows this.
But a big part of the problem is - as far as I understand - that even if someone would be willing to pay for this that the MobyGames founders still would sit on everything. Or what other reason could it be that even Sciere has to beg for everything? I am convinced that Xoleras would have the skill and motivation to work at the structure of MobyGames. He vanished shortly after he was made admin. I suspect there is a reason for that.
Personally I am glad with the working (!) structure MobyGames provides, even with the flaws. And I don't think it will die soon - over ten years for a internet site is a long time and the founders earned some credit with that. They care enough about the site to keep it running.
Sicarius (61484) on 6/9/2010 4:34 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Patrick Bregger wrote--]at least unless someone is willing to pay some serious bucks for a few skilled programmers. [/Q --end Patrick Bregger wrote--] Why not do a money-drive on the front page for exact that purpose? MobyGames certainly has its fair share of visitors and even if only a few of them donate it would at least cover part of the costs.
Patrick Bregger (290049) on 6/9/2010 8:57 AM · edited · Permalink · Report
Well, I guess that could work. Even if there is not enough revenue to finance a re-design I am sure this money would be useful for the site.
But of course this only works if the MobyGames founders even want help. The biggest obstacle seems to be that the original coder is not willing to let anybody near his code. This is of course his good right. As Sciere sad, he keeps the site running and we even got a new search engine recently - but what happens if he can't even spare that time anymore or, worse, something happens to him? I hope there are precautions for that.
Игги Друге (46154) on 6/10/2010 2:14 PM · Permalink · Report
Forget it. Even when you reach approver status, your role is to work for free and shut up. What happens to Mobygames is none of your business and we should all trust someone who probably wouldn't be able to make a proper game submission under the current rules.
Unicorn Lynx (180491) on 6/9/2010 2:01 AM · Permalink · Report
I just find it much more likely for the whole Gaza strip thing to get resolved before MobyGames is ever that open.
Which brings me to another MobyGames joke:
Unicorn Lynx finds a magic lamp and summons a genie, who tells him he can grant him one wish. Unicorn Lynx shows him a map of Israel and Palestinian Territories and says: "You see, people are always fighting here, can you make peace between the two nations?" The genie thinks and then says: 'No, sorry man, but that's too hard, I can't do that. Any other wish?" So Unicorn Lynx says: "I've been doing volunteer work at this gaming website called MobyGames for 9 years now, and lately the leadership has abandoned it, nothing important happens, platforms are not added, and approvals are slow. Could you please fix this?" The genie thinks and then says: "Can you show me that map again?.."
MegamanX64 (15996) on 6/9/2010 7:39 AM · Permalink · Report
I've been thinking about how to open up the development of the site, and here are some thoughts on how it could be done:
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Make the website code open source. Create a package (including a mockup database) that anyone can download to set up your own development site at home.
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If a person contributes to the code, (s)he can submit it for approval. Code submitted for approval is copied into dev.mobygames.com and senior moderators with good knowledge of the site can evaluate it and make sure it works as intended.
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If the code is approved, it is submitted to Brian who has the final say and is in charge of including it into the production site. The author of the code is also granted points, just like any other contribution.
As I see it, this will enable the community to contribute to the site, while still leaving the site in control with the "mobygods", provided that they are ok with making it open source, as there are several reasons why you might not want that (including security issues). Bad thing is that it would require some initial work to get going, which might be a problem. Also, it is probably best suited for smaller changes rather that a complete redesign of the site.
Sciere (877338) on 6/9/2010 7:48 AM · edited · Permalink · Report
Brian is the key here. He runs a test server, but he is very restrictive of the code. It's all written in Perl by himself and he has done a crazy amount of optimizations to make the site so fast on just a single server. You could contact him to see what is possible, but I don't he's willing to release any of the code. In the past EboMike offered to chip in and we also suggested recruiting a temp to work on the site as an internship, but that didn't go through.
The current stance is that Brian keeps the site running for an indefinite amount of time, but the time of vast improvements is long gone. This mainly happened when flipkin disappeared, he was the "project manager" and community liaison to pass on ideas picked up here to Brian. Brian always comes forward when something breaks to fix it, but the ideas no longer reach him now, and I'm sure he doesn't have the time to put much time in the project either.
Sicarius (61484) on 6/10/2010 6:30 AM · Permalink · Report
Well, I can understand a programmer wanting to protect his code but is there no way to somehow talk to him and get him into the discussion? Like I said - all my attempts of communicating with him in the past were ignored.
If he's so worried about his code, a (more time consuming) way would be to independently create the new front- and back-ends with him only providing the necessary, protected interfaces to access the database. In the end, I think that's the only thing we need to keep from the current MG anyway.
formercontrib (157685) on 6/10/2010 9:49 AM · edited · Permalink · Report
I wonder daily more, is Moby still REALLY alive.
Or was it sold 2 years ago to - for example - to GiantBomb because of a lucrative offer. And the owners don't have the courage to tell us the truth:
They don't steal our content - they copy & paste it piece for piece - because it's already their content.
Shortly before this procedure will be finished - we will be "informed" ...."Sorry, but MobyGames shutdown tomorrow, please apologize, have a good time and thanx for the fish..." :(
Decency in these days - that's like easter, birthday and christmas - if pigs could fly....
BurningStickMan (17916) on 6/10/2010 5:17 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start joyvalley wrote--]I wonder daily more, is Moby still REALLY alive.
Or was it sold 2 years ago to - for example - to GiantBomb because of a lucrative offer. And the owners don't have the courage to tell us the truth: [/Q --end joyvalley wrote--]
Well...
Pseudo_Intellectual (65289) on 6/10/2010 5:03 PM · Permalink · Report
Does an online petition ever get anyone's attention?
Alaka (99469) on 6/10/2010 6:02 PM · Permalink · Report
A boycott from the main approver/contributor pool may be more effective than a petition. I mean what's the difference between a petition that will most likely be ignored and us bitching in the forums apparently being ignored. I really hope the powers that be at least attempt to start a dialogue with us plebians before anything that drastic has too happen.
BurningStickMan (17916) on 6/10/2010 6:25 PM · Permalink · Report
I don't agree with an approver boycott. That doesn't seem fair to contributors.
A contributor boycott, well, I'll leave that up to the individual. I've certainly dropped off my contributions since this whole thing as started, since I don't see much point in putting in the work until some of these questions are answered.
But, I don't really see any mass contributor boycott having much of an effect, except maybe to speed along any pending MG death.
Foxhack (31931) on 6/10/2010 6:38 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
I haven't submitted anything in a while because of this thread, too.
I've had enough. I'm tired.
(On one positive note, there's no way in hell I'm joining Giant ****. I'd rather make any new game entries as part of my own website, with my own rules.)
BurningStickMan (17916) on 6/10/2010 7:25 PM · Permalink · Report
What I get from Bomb's forums is that most people go to the site for the personalities of Jeff and the others (interesting, because I find their video reviews to be lazy, unedited frat-boys-on-the-couch rambles). Actual concern about the documenting and upkeep of the wiki, as you would imagine with a younger site slanted toward modern games, is a low priority. I saw a few threads over there with people basically saying the site and wiki would fall apart if Jeff and co ever left. Seems plausible.
They also apparently have basic data entry and backend issues that haven't been addressed - something that Moby at least does not. I guess Wikipedia should be next in line if anyone was going anywhere.
Foxhack (31931) on 6/10/2010 7:34 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
Giant ****'s only claim to fame is the founders, and maybe their video playthroughs.
The site itself has absolutely no interest in any sort of historical data, unlike MobyGames, which was the reason I joined up. All their info is taken from other places. There's no quality control.
I'm not so sure they'll be around in a few years.
Daniel Saner (3467) on 6/10/2010 11:27 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Foxhack wrote--]I'm not so sure they'll be around in a few years.[/Q --end Foxhack wrote--]
Unfortunately that's about the confidence I have in MGs future by now.
MobyGames was started in a different Internet era. It's hard to rely on community contributions without a reasonable guarantee for the availability of the data.
vedder (68267) on 6/11/2010 8:16 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start BurningStickMan wrote--]I don't agree with an approver boycott. That doesn't seem fair to contributors.
A contributor boycott, well, I'll leave that up to the individual. I've certainly dropped off my contributions since this whole thing as started, since I don't see much point in putting in the work until some of these questions are answered.
But, I don't really see any mass contributor boycott having much of an effect, except maybe to speed along any pending MG death. [/Q --end BurningStickMan wrote--]
For an approver Boycot you'll only be able to reach the forum regulars. An approver boycott would be much more efficient. If the approvers go on strike there's two options. Either the founders intervene or MobyGames dies.
formercontrib (157685) on 6/11/2010 10:47 AM · Permalink · Report
The longer i think about the whole situation, the more i get the impression that we talk about long laid eggs.
I mean: Why shall we believe any longer that Moby is still controlled by a few founders with the interest in their original visions ?
Feel free to correct me, or call me paranoid - call me prophet of doom and gloom - no prob, the situation/scenario actually looks for me this way:
Site founders: How many of us have contact to those "gods"? Are they still alive or still interested in this project? When did they show their attendance the last time and not only with their megaphone? And always the same lame phrases like "The current stance is that Brian keeps the site running for an indefinite amount of time" - what is that supposed to mean? Reading between the lines it sounds more and more to me like "You guys have to be thankful that we didn't pull the lever to OFF so far". What has happened that Oliver "Xoleras" disappeared suddenly? Did he realised what really happens behind the scenes - and had chosen the option to surrender, because he don't want to be part of such a farce?
Does this site still belong to all the the hardworking and enthusiastic contributors and approvers - or is it nothing more than a farce, a parody and the site and all it's content was sold (not) long ago - probably to the GiantBomb founders. And the "Gods" laughed up in their sleeves about the amount they received.
Be realistic: Is it a crime to accept a lucrative offer? No, it isn't. - Is it cowardice not to have the cojones to speak out the truth to all those who spent or still spend a lot of time in the project? Yes, it is.
I say: All of us - contributors, approvers, eventually admins too DESERVE THE RIGHT to receive answers - real answers, the truth... NOW - instead of slipshod all the time. After this, everybody is able to make an decision if it's still worth to fight for or not. We're lost too many valuable, irreplaceable members the last 2 years, we cannot afford the luxury to loose more of such members - many of us still want to see this site stayin alive - DO THE "GODS" WANT THIS TOO ??
game nostalgia (5610) on 6/12/2010 10:24 AM · edited · Permalink · Report
Being only a small contributor, I am still quite disturbed to read all this. I agree with Joyvalley wholeheartedly. If Xoleras disappeared for this reason, it would be absolutely horrible. And it shows moreover that contributors and approvers deserve an answer.
Like Joyvalley said it isn't a crime to accept a lucrative offer. But it would be a moral crime if it concerns the format and its contents. I am sure the work of all contributors/approvers is based on their belief that the database is and stays freely accessible to all. It would be a big shame to ignore that ideal and simply go for the profit. Let’s hope MG doesn’t become (or has become) a manifestation of the Goldman Sachs’ way of thinking and doing.
Sadly, not answering to the worries expressed here seems to say it all, I am afraid.
BurningStickMan (17916) on 6/12/2010 3:57 PM · Permalink · Report
I don't believe the site was sold, or that there's any particular conspiracy at work. I think what you're seeing is just pure apathy.
game nostalgia (5610) on 6/12/2010 8:23 PM · Permalink · Report
That may be so, but some asked here for clarification from the "people in charge". That shouldn't be too big of a problem I think, even if you got married and got children. And in a way they are foster parents of hundreds of contributors (or is it the other way around?) ;-) . And after a long and great life all people will die, and what happens then. Of course the status/future of MG is important to its contributors. From the start I also wondered about this issue because I couldn't find a satisfying answer in faq's. So I think these kind of questions are perfectly justified, and I think not answering or evading these questions is simply wrong and bad policy.
formercontrib (157685) on 6/13/2010 7:54 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Sciere wrote--]Exactly, and getting married/having a family also change priorities. [/Q --end Sciere wrote--]
Apathy, priority changes because of marrying/famliy are all unsatisfactory responses, changing absolutely nothing at the situation - when those guys prefer to let the site die, instead of givin' it into the hands of all those who worked hard for it - made the database to that what is it these days. Those "founder/leaders" benefit all the years of the reputation of the database. To say - and exactly this you did, Stijn... before we give any power away - we shut down, can interpret everybody the way he want. For me this isn't very trustful.
Without ruffle or excitement i came to the conclusion, that i don't want to be any longer part of the "Dark Side" of it who accepts or accelerates this. So...from now on i do concentrate my ressources again bundled in the work als contributors
As i'm not interested in blocking potentially approver resources, like others, i can offer herewith:
Approx. 30% of all approvals in the database so far in 2010 or at least one job for:
PC + Acorn Electron + BBC Micro + Commodore 64 + several All games categories.
Interested contributors, please apply here: http://www.mobygames.com/approver-request or contact the "leaders" directly by PM or forum, thx'si.
From NOW on!
BurningStickMan (17916) on 6/13/2010 4:54 PM · Permalink · Report
So you're no longer going to be an approver, but you'll still contribute?
Sure this is all voluntary and you're free to make that choice, but how exactly does that help the situation? Do you think the Moby owners will even take notice? All this does is make more work for the other approvers.
GAMEBOY COLOR! (1989) on 6/13/2010 5:52 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
If it helps, I would like to be a approver. I can go through the screenshots for, well, almost anything. I have a good grasp of the resolutions for most of the platforms on Moby, and I know what to avoid. No spoilers, super compressed JPGs, or three hundred screens of the first two levels. Or if that isn't enough I can handle any of the Game Boy platforms, but I would like to get screenshots out the door.
Edit-Or screenshots without descriptions.
formercontrib (157685) on 6/13/2010 8:02 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start BurningStickMan wrote--]So you're no longer going to be an approver, but you'll still contribute? ... Sure this is all voluntary and you're free to make that choice, but how exactly does that help the situation? Do you think the Moby owners will even take notice? All this does is make more work for the other approvers. [/Q --end BurningStickMan wrote--]
Still contributing: For the moment - yes. Maybe, maybe not until i completed my personal aims.
Looks like you misheard something, so a 2nd and last time i explain my point of view - integrated you will find answer to your questions...
1.) Moby owners: Still unanswered who they REALLY are - so if they notice or not isn't of relevance. Sciere quoted Brian Hirt still as one of them, and quoted Brian's opinions - because for some, undefined, reason Brian isn't able to communicate directly here in this forum to more than 11.500 members that contributed and spent time in this MobyGames-project so far (not to forget those probably sheer endless amount of interested people that haven't contributed so far but use MobyGames as the/one of their favorite sites for videogames.
Sciere wrote: "Brian is the key here. He runs a test server, but he is very restrictive of the code. It's all written in Perl by himself and he has done a crazy amount of optimizations to make the site so fast on just a single server. You could contact him to see what is possible, but I don't he's willing to release any of the code. and also "The current stance is that Brian keeps the site running for an indefinite amount of time, but the time of vast improvements is long gone. "
This thread was opened with the title "MobyGames showing it's age... and started by several frustrated, BUT MORE THAN THIS --- WILLING and probably qualified members to work for renewal of the existing database with the aim imho to make it a little bit "fresher", easier to handle, adjusted to the "modern times" --- NOT MORE, NOT LESS. The answers from Brian using his loud speaker Sciere, you'll find a few lines above.
Everybody can handle and interpret such comment the way he wants - so also i have the right, or? Oki.
So i compress this words a little bit, they way i interpret them (see before: Everybody here is adult enough to build his own opinion):
"The founders(?) aren't willing (even that they haven't done alot over the last years for this site - contributors and approvers and admins filled this site with life!) to offer any source material or help or give partially access to several things - BEFORE THEY'RE ARE WILLING TO DESCEND FROM THEIR HORSES - THEY ALREADY MADE THE DECISION TO LET THE SITE DIE - this can happen in 100, in 10 maybe in 1 year, but also possible in 1 month, yes even tomorrow"...
As approver i oblige the ones above me, BUT, i also see me as contributor, as member - as part of the whole community. I'm unable to reconcile this with my conscience. That's why i made the decision that i'm no longer of use as an approver - so i draw the conclusion to resign of this volunteer-work.
And finally to your questions, they're partially unanswered so far...:
It still isn't my aim to help the situation - and i don't see the effect of my resign as positive or negative for this situation.
And more work for the other approvers: MORE THAN 60 ARE LISTED in the approval stats. One approver is history - that's me - hey?! 1 out of 60 you can't compensate ? Ah, you tried to give me a guilty conscience? Sorry, mission failed! Especially when i'm already compensated, Daniel Hawks replaces old joyvalley, and probably more applies upcoming, so i can't share your opinion about this, sorry.
Ace of Sevens (4400) on 6/13/2010 8:00 PM · Permalink · Report
A lot of the issue is I was busy with school and had less time for games in general, but many long-standing organizational problems have turned me off the site as well. There is really no good way to do walk-throughs on here. We still see on the first screenshot from a given game in group pages, meaning we mostly see title screen and the good/bad/summary structure makes it incredibly difficult to write a good review.
This is besides a lot of issues with certain tech specs making no sense and the odd (read: ridiculous) way we handle special editions.
Ace of Sevens (4400) on 6/13/2010 9:32 PM · Permalink · Report
I should also add that a lot of this had to do with approver frustration. A large percentage of contributors can't write a game description properly no matter how many times you WIP it and you have to worry about a poorly-described game vs. it likely never being added at all, or at least not with all the screenshots and cover art the contributor was sending. This is another area where better tools would help as we could flag games needing new descriptions (ala Wikipedia's stubs) rather than just having a list somewhere that non-approvers can't even access.
Rola (8131) on 6/14/2010 9:03 AM · Permalink · Report
Speaking of stubs, I'd like to get back to my previous suggestions: another reason why database should contain incomplete entries (presented according to special rules, so that our motto "quality over quantity" still applies - so limited access or something like that) is new titles (see "Too many new big titties missing"). Having all the recently released games listed in some form would surely help mobygames, as people are actively searching those strings in search engines, so this website would pop up more often in results -> more visitors -> more prestige etc.
Daniel Saner (3467) on 6/14/2010 11:21 AM · Permalink · Report
Discogs has discovered the need for this about 2 years back, and I really like their approach. It's a good combination between a contribution-based system like a Wiki (with modifications history and all) and an approver-based system like Moby (with higher-level users voting on the quality of a suggested modification). Entries that have not yet been voted on (positively or negatively) or have had recent changes are marked accordingly so you know that it might not yet be up to the quality/approval standards of the rest of the site.
Parf (7719) on 6/14/2010 8:26 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Daniel Saner wrote--]Discogs has discovered the need for this about 2 years back, and I really like their approach. It's a good combination between a contribution-based system like a Wiki (with modifications history and all) and an approver-based system like Moby (with higher-level users voting on the quality of a suggested modification). Entries that have not yet been voted on (positively or negatively) or have had recent changes are marked accordingly so you know that it might not yet be up to the quality/approval standards of the rest of the site. [/Q --end Daniel Saner wrote--]
I actually left discogs for those (and other reasons). They had the same problem that Moby is currently having, but instead of addressing the problems, they just totally ignored the users requests for improvements and went along making Discogs a site more or less based on being a marketplace first as opposed to a database (which was built from the ground up by users). That really pissed me off big time. It felt like the two people in charge just waited for the database to grow big enough to be lucrative, then sold the users down the river in the name of profit. Not cool.
angry rant... off
j.raido 【雷堂嬢太朗】 (80073) on 6/14/2010 8:44 PM · Permalink · Report
I was a (small-time) contributor to Discogs too, years back, when they were just a dance and electronic music database. I left about when they started adding other genres (which was shortly after the marketplace was added), since it felt like they were losing sight of the original purpose of the site, expanding it beyond a scope that the volunteer staff could really handle. The last few times I've been there, the layout and design has just confused the hell out of me -- why are three releases with the same title but completely different tracklists and art grouped together? Why do I need to know in huge glowing letters that 349 people have releases by this artist for sale?
I would really hate to see Moby lose sight of its original purpose like Discogs did. Not the least because I've put a massive amount of time and effort -- still incomparable to many of the other contributors here -- into my contributions here. Much, much more than I ever did with Discogs. But I fear if the people behind the scenes aren't willing to either take care of their creation or pass the torch, then things will simply continue a slow death until all that remains is what's left on archive.org and that Chinese bootleg site.
Daniel Saner (3467) on 6/15/2010 12:53 PM · Permalink · Report
To be honest I don't really understand the criticism towards the changes Discogs have made. In my view they are the best they could have done in the situation they were in. The marketplace is a very integral part of that site, because it's the only one of its size. If looking to buy an older release, people who know about Discogs will in all likelihood look there first, before even eBay or Amazon. Besides, huge glowing letters? It's a little yellow button in the sidebar of each page, approximately 100x30 pixels. It's not exactly distracting, and if you're not interested in buying/selling, you can just ignore it. MobyGames has a lot of information I'm not personally interested in too, but I don't leave the site because of that.
The usability and layout is certainly not the best, takes some getting used to. But the release grouping in particular was absolutely necessary, discographies that are 100 screen pages long are not exactly nice. Lots of potential for improvement for sure, though.
I don't see how Discogs has lost track of their goals. They didn't remove any features, still offer what they used to offer. And they're still the best site for discographies out there, by far. No other site comes even close to its comprehensiveness, the closest thing is the non-community-driven AMG. Discogs ran, not the least because of their widening scope in genres, into danger of becoming obsolete because the time-span for new releases to be added grew much too big. They counteracted by emplying the new Wiki-style editing and WIP status system, which in my opinion was the most important change Discogs has seen in its entire history. It was close to becoming useless, and suddenly it wasn't anymore - you could again use it for the original purpose of finding release information. If one of Moby's big problems is the lack of actuality, long approval times and slow contributors hogging pending entries, then I couldn't think of any better solution than this. Time after time, others have proposed a system for MG that, if you think about it, is essentially what Discogs did, so I don't think I'm alone in this.
Parf (7719) on 6/16/2010 9:43 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Daniel Saner wrote--]The marketplace is a very integral part of that site, because it's the only one of its size.[/Q --end Daniel Saner wrote--]
And this shows how long you've been there. When I started there, there wasn't even a marketplace. There were just have/want lists. When they "integrated" the marketplace it was pretty clear what they intended to use the data that contributors had added for. I mean, now they are a marketplace with a database attached to it. They/we used to take pride in all of the rare and odd stuff you could find there, but now that feels like a secondary part. Now it's more important to add stuff which is either commercial or which will sell at a high price. I'm sorry, but to me that site is a totally different (and much greedier) animal than it used to be.
Going from being "the best electronic music database on the internet" to "you can find artists such as Cher, Red Hot Chili Peppers and Lady Gaga in our marketplace" to me is losing sight of the original reason you started the site. But that's just me.
Daniel Saner (3467) on 6/17/2010 12:44 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Parf wrote--]And this shows how long you've been there. When I started there, there wasn't even a marketplace. There were just have/want lists. When they "integrated" the marketplace it was pretty clear what they intended to use the data that contributors had added for. I mean, now they are a marketplace with a database attached to it. They/we used to take pride in all of the rare and odd stuff you could find there, but now that feels like a secondary part. Now it's more important to add stuff which is either commercial or which will sell at a high price. I'm sorry, but to me that site is a totally different (and much greedier) animal than it used to be.[/Q --end Parf wrote--]
I was there before the Marketplace existed, I just don't share your view that its addition has changed anything about the rest of the site. Do they remove unpopular entries from the database? Do new or more popular releases get any sort of preferential treatment, such as being approved more quickly, than obscure releases? No, and no. The Marketplace is added functionality. Everything else is still there and works as it always has.
I could understand your frustration if the site was showing neglect of the other parts of the site in favour of the Marketplace, like approval times for obscure releases growing. But that's not what I see happening. Since the vote system, database update time has gone down considerably, and it was clear for a long time that something like the voting system was necessary, as the old system just couldn't be kept running in the long time (genres with 1+ years in the backlog, etc.)
Can you tell me anything that got worse on Discogs not since, but because of the addition of the marketplace? Other than that you obviously dislike the "## for sale" button taking away from the "original focus" of the site? The effect of the extensive database Discogs always had, together with Have/Want lists that I am sure you agree are a desirable functionality for the site, was that people were just trading via PMs. Getting 10 messages a week from people who want to ask whether this or that record you have is for sale was annoying, and the need for a more systematic trading system definitely there. Even though Discogs profits from it, buyers and sellers choose freely to use that trading system, and it isn't forced upon anyone, nor does it prevent anyone from using the site like it was before the Marketplace existed. Which leads back to the original topic as here on MobyGames, there is exactly the same mismatch between a commercial entity owning and profiting from user-contributed data.
Consciously examining Discogs again, the front page doesn't even mention the Marketplace except for the drop-down menu on the top. If the Marketplace was really all they cared about anymore, you'd think they would put it on the front page. Apart from that, all you have is one little link to Discogs Marketplace and one little link to Discogs Digital (never even noticed that) in a sidebar of every data sheet page. That's a combined 290x70 pixels (I measured). If you don't click on any of them, you won't even notice the Marketplace being there.
Edit: Also, this informal and non-binding statement is even more than we get here at MobyGames, sadly...
Parf (7719) on 6/17/2010 8:39 PM · Permalink · Report
I haven't even been at the site for years now actually, since they forcefully implemented "v. 4", so maybe things have gotten better since. I wouldn't know. I just now that the way they went about things in that change was totally what left a bad taste in my (as well as a lot of the other regulars') mouths. People were asking for all of these functionality upgrades in the forums constantly, but nothing ever got done. Then one day all of a sudden Teo (the owner) just decides to change everything over night, but without adding any of the things people had been asking for. I remember the "master release" function being one of those things. That was something which was added much much later after the total overhaul.
I may come off as ranty and slightly unfocused in the matter here, but I guess what I want to get at is the fact that the owner (while allowed to do whatever he wants to his site) totally ignored what a big section of the more knowledgable and "old school" members thought would be good, and just ran his own agenda. And he suffered from the same problem I suppose a lot of people programming sites like this do; a sever lack of communication skills. He'd totally disregard most of the posts in the forums, and only show up when he felt like it and post that he implemented some totally useless small feature which wasn't needed at all. If he'd at least been up front and honest about what his vision was, I think a lot of people would feel differently about him (me included). Instead of basically going behind the backs of your loyal site regulars, why not let them know what you're about to do?
Maybe I'll go back there some day, since my love of music is too big and I still have a ton of records which still aren't in their database... but for now, I'm still not quite over how screwed over I felt when they did that to the site.
So, dear Mr. Mobygames owners. If you decide to totally do an overhaul, please at least let your users know beforehand and don't do a Teo of Discogs stunt. Thank you.
Foxhack (31931) on 6/14/2010 1:30 PM · Permalink · Report
Q --start Rola wrote--.[/Q --end Rola wrote--]I'm sorry, I'm quoting this for posterity.
formercontrib (157685) on 6/14/2010 2:17 PM · Permalink · Report
Would like to see this too, not sure if it can be technically realised concering to "stick" them or mark what's missing...like for example forum most-importants threads.
Pro: 1.) Additional games will increase, probably asap - not limited to brand new titles imo. 2.) Non-native english speakers - like me - would scream "Yes!!! Now i'm able to add games i avoided so far because of the english description required. Or also when you never played such games.
Cons: 1.) See start of my post. 2.) Could cause trouble concerning to potentially duplicates - for example: 5 people have the same idea immediately to write a description (So far i think: you're unable to see - opposed to credits for example if other people working at this too, or already finished it - but not approved s far. "Hey!??! why did you rejected my work, mine was better :(" --- and oversee the actual state of affairs could managed if it all only by starting for example within the game entry - a forum thread about it! - where you can inform others what you're working for at the moment... But i think, this way - this problem could be handled, if people make intense use ot this possibility - but only then.
But besides all pro's and con's - i vote for this also with YES, GIVE IT TO US! :)
Patrick Bregger (290049) on 6/14/2010 2:42 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
I'm not in favor of this. It is really not hard to write a decent two-paragraph description about almost every game. And I like that I can click on a game and I am almost sure to know what it is about after reading the description - bad 1999 descriptions and exceptions aside. If someone is allowed to make a stub I guarantee that 97% of the games will never see a description. And many people who would be able to write a good description when contributing a game wouldn't. But it should be possible to enter a game when the exact release year is not known.
Something like the missing game sheet integrated in the database would be good - but leave the real entries alone!
[q]5 people have the same idea immediately to write a description (So far i think: you're unable to see - opposed to credits for example if other people working at this too, or already finished it - but not approved s far. )[/q] If someone starts to revise a game description it immediately gets locked for everyone else. I think even before it is sent to approval.
formercontrib (157685) on 6/14/2010 3:21 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
During the 1st half of a lousy game between JPN and CAM i got an idea!
What do the community think about a situation like this: It requires more or less NOTHING and it will fit the standards of Moby - so it should be comfortable for all members.
My idea is based on a combination of the missing game sheets, forum thread for adding new groups, cooperation of everybody who wants/can add something, to create New game entries on a good enough level for approvers/admins etc. too, so here it is:
1.) NOT required (but would be most comfortable imho): We get a new - in this case - 7th General Forums "sheet" in addition of the existing 6 (General Discussion, MobyGames.com, News, andsoon): We CALL it for example: New game entries - work in progress.
2.) For every new game a user wants to have it added to the database, but can't because he's missing required informations, someone starts a THREAD - and name it after the GAME TITLE of the game he wants to see added. A new thread for each game, why that? I'm sure i can answer your question with my upcoming vision!
For example - First at all we add a "sticky" thread (with instructions - but more with a "game information required sheet": that can be easily added by copy&paste one time for each new game thread, so:
(New Thread - Game title) "The Good, the Bad and the MobyGames'ler"
So, and now? Here we start with the "Game information required" sheet.
So, what is required? Everything that is needed if you want to add a game to MobyGames, that means:
Game Title:
Game Description:
Release Information:
Genres:
Game Ratings:
That's all! Everything else we can list in addition on this "Game Sheet" like for example: Covers, Screenshots, Tech-Specs, Credits andsoon. But all those aren't required to add a game to the database.
Because of the system of the forum, i think ONLY THE MEMBER who created such a thread has access to EDIT it and should do this - after replies to actualize he's starting post with the "Game Sheet".
And now - everyone who is interested seeing the game in the database in the future, and/or has something REQUIRED to add --> REPLIES in this game thread - including his sources, because afterwards, when all REQUIRED information is included, the one who has started the thread, BRINGS THIS INFORMATIONS directly to the ADD A GAME and enters all collected required informations to the database - as the new game entry! That's all :)
Isn't this easy and no changes to the database are required (except when possible the 7th sheet in the Forum - but i'm in good hope this can be easily realised.
Think about this ideas - Do you find anything good about it? (i hope so ;)...and in comparison to the Missing Game Sheet (great idea that is! :) - EVERYONE has easily access in this constellation, only write your informations down at the thread of the game you want to add infos.
Cons: Not many imho - and those i would say people can live with. For example: Only the one you created the post for the new game "XYZ" (be fair guys!) will receive contribution pts. for it? Oh my god, take a look at the REQUIRED things if you add only them you normally get not more as approx. 10 pts. --- and if you contributed partial info in the thread even less than 10 pts.! ---- BECAUSE don't forget, all information you have - let's say in your "backhand" - like for example Credits, Screenshots, Covers ... you don't have to "offer" - you can contribute them after the game is approved on your own ;) ...
So guys, i hope i had one time a not to bad idea... what do you think about it? Details for "Game Sheet" or if you have additional ideas or see errors in my thinking -->
Let's go!
vedder (68267) on 6/15/2010 6:25 AM · edited · Permalink · Report
[Q --start joyvalley wrote--]i got an idea!
[Long story]
[/Q --end joyvalley wrote--]
I'm not a big fan of allowing stubs, but I guess like this it's OK, because it's separate from the actual database. The only problem I foresee is that you'd still need to put everything through the wizards later on.
[edit had to cut off to catch a train, continuing:] Also people who provide valuable information on the thread won't get a single point for it. While that might be justified for people who were just too lazy to create an entire new game entry. For games where it's just difficult to find info it would be punishing.
Ace of Sevens (4400) on 6/15/2010 8:49 AM · Permalink · Report
You wouldn't think it's hard, but I've seen lots of cases that get wiped several times, but still have nothing but a half-assed description of the story and a note that game-play is vaguely similar to some game.
Foxhack (31931) on 6/14/2010 6:22 PM · Permalink · Report
rubs temples
I'm done.
Today I got a WIP message from an admin who says that PEGI's website is not a valid source for information because "websites often make mistakes".
Does ANYONE see the logic in that? That's like saying Microsoft's XBox Live Arcade website is not a valid source for ratings or tech specs because it's a website.
That's the last straw for me. I fail to see the logic in this, or many other decisions by the site staff. I really hope this site gets its shit together before it goes down for good.
Bye.
Sicarius (61484) on 6/14/2010 6:51 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
well, I don't want to steal your thunder but ESRB.org and PEGI.info are actually not that well known for their accuracy in both the rating and the descriptors. ESRB I can't attest to much but PEGI I've had a box in my hand more than once with different ratings on it than shown online.
The most recent example is King Arthur: The Role-playing Wargame. The German box shows "12+", PEGI.info lists it as 16+. And honestly I trust thing I can hold in my hand a bit more than a mostly automatically generated website :).
Patrick Bregger (290049) on 6/14/2010 6:52 PM · Permalink · Report
Well, it depends on the kind of information. I don't know about the PEGI site but the USK which is more or less a similar thing in Germany. The USK site is a good source for the USK ratings. Because that is their business. But they also have release dates and such for these games on file which are totally unreliable. Sometimes they are years off.
Sicarius (61484) on 6/14/2010 6:56 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
The ratings on USK.de are solid and I'll attest to that with my whole games collection (and it is a site run by German bureaucracy after all :) ) but what do you mean by release dates? To my knowledge they only list the date on which the game was rated. Or is there a hidden database I've yet to discover?
Patrick Bregger (290049) on 6/14/2010 7:15 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
I was thinking about another database which is somehow related to the USK database: Zavatar. I was always under the impression that it is run by the UKS too but I was apparently wrong. They just synchronize their database with the USK- that's why their USK ratings are correct too.
formercontrib (157685) on 6/14/2010 7:37 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Foxhack wrote--]rubs temples
I'm done. Today I got a WIP message from an admin who says that PEGI's website is not a valid source for information because "websites often make mistakes". Does ANYONE see the logic in that? That's like saying Microsoft's XBox Live Arcade website is not a valid source for ratings or tech specs because it's a website. That's the last straw for me. I fail to see the logic in this, or many other decisions by the site staff. I really hope this site gets its shit together before it goes down for good. Bye. [/Q --end Foxhack wrote--]
Almost everything said about: It's correct for at least the ESRB - since several months we do not accept any longer at least the DESCRIPTORS they show on their website. Own covers, or dev/pub infos on their sites are fine. The ESRB is especially for descriptors a disaster.
USK is reliable imo - BUT found some errors there too as i submitted long ago hundreds of missing USK ratings. A few time there were also different cover print ratings compared to the info on their site - but that could also be errors pub/dev made.
PEGI: Is in my opinion not really reliable for descriptors too. Another "problem" is - whyever - probably because of different law situation, that they have different years ratings. Search a few games and you find out - that for example the PEGI 3+ is a 4+ for parts of Europe, the 12+ a 11+ andsoon, 1 year older you "must" be in parts of Europe if it comes to the recommendations. Also this affects the descriptors sometimes - i saw constellations like 3+ NO DESCRIPTOR vs. 4+ +FEAR or VIOLENCE descriptor. That's an additional source of making errors when they fill their web-database.
OFLC Australia: Can't say much about it, problem is most times missing covers on file for comparison with the website descriptors. But Aussie's have an "personal bonus" - i like them, so i trust them ;) (it's like: Danes don't lie! :)
formercontrib (157685) on 6/14/2010 7:28 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Sicarius wrote--]To get back to the issue at hand: Had recently or is anyone actually in contact with Corn Popper or Brian? [/Q --end Sicarius wrote--]
Never had contact to Brian. Contact with Rob is rare - last "contact" was not long ago as he approved about 20-30 additional release infos in a few minutes, i did for the Jaguar (if i remember correct).
I think if you would like to reach the gods, contact Sciere, eventually Kabushi with the infos you want to have from them, think they (Brian + Rob) will reply to the admins if they ask for you.
MZ per X (3010) on 6/15/2010 11:42 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Sicarius wrote--]To get back to the issue at hand: Had recently or is anyone actually in contact with Corn Popper or Brian? [/Q --end Sicarius wrote--] Berk & Hirt Consulting is the company behind MobyGames. Why don't they let one of the developers they are obviously employing do some work on the site?
Will MobyGames turn Pro tomorrow or next year?
I think I will stop contributing until something substantially has happened or some of the questions in this thread have been answered. It hurts, but my time is valuable, so if I don't really know the final outcome of the time spent here, I'll spend it elsewhere for now.
DJP Mom (11318) on 6/15/2010 10:43 PM · Permalink · Report
I'm still wondering what happened to these guys...
game nostalgia (5610) on 6/16/2010 9:07 PM · Permalink · Report
I guess MZ per X's link was a bit more to the point:
"On Tuesday, November 08, 2005, a U.S. federal trademark registration was filed for MOBYGAMES PRO. This trademark is owned by Berk & Hirt Consulting Company, 70 West Madison Street, #1400, Chicago , 60602 . Trademarkia.com is a free search engine of publicly available government records. Trademarkia.com is not a law firm and does not represent owners & correspondents listed on this page.
The correspondent listed for MOBYGAMES PRO is BRETT E. LEWIS, ESQ. of LEWIS & HAND, LLP, 45 MAIN ST STE 818, BROOKLYN, NY 11201-8200 . The MOBYGAMES PRO trademark is filed in the category of Advertising, Business & Retail Services . The description provided to the USPTO for MOBYGAMES PRO is Business services, namely, providing access to a searchable database of business information related to video game credits, consisting of design, production, sound, art, programming, job role, year, platform, and publisher credits of companies that produce video games.
The USPTO has given the MOBYGAMES PRO trademark serial number of 78749667. The current federal status of this trademark filing is REGISTERED.
Trademarkia is the largest search engine for U.S. trademarks. Each month hundreds of trademarks around the world are filed by licensed attorneys in the Trademarkia network! You can register your trademark in 55 countries in the world through Trademarkia."
BurningStickMan (17916) on 6/16/2010 10:09 PM · Permalink · Report
2005 was a long time ago though. I would imagine they'd have done something with Moby Pro by now if something was going to be done.
Also thought Birk & Hirt (as in David Birk and Brian Hirt) was just an LLC those two cobbled together to act as the legal entity backing Moby. Not the specific company FOR Moby, to promote and exploit it.
game nostalgia (5610) on 6/17/2010 10:09 AM · Permalink · Report
“2005 was a long time ago though. I would imagine they'd have done something with Moby Pro by now if something was going to be done.”
True, it is a few years ago, but it seems to prove a point people are concerned about here (a possible way of thinking). And the status and future of MG stay completely unknown, and as you can see yourself people just don’t get a straight answer to their justified questions.
Maw (833) on 6/18/2010 10:46 AM · Permalink · Report
The reason I was "sold" on Mobygames in 2003 is it was such an amazingly efficient and streamlined site. I was so used to finding game information on crappy Geocities sites that Mobygames blew me away with it's sheer usability.
Seven years later and now it's Mobygames who is the Geocities in this equation. Sure, it still fills a niche (detailed information on old, obscure games) but it gets severely manhandled by everything from Wikipedia to Giant Bomb in terms of design.
Patrick Bregger (290049) on 6/18/2010 5:03 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Maw wrote--]The reason I was "sold" on Mobygames in 2003 is it was such an amazingly efficient and streamlined site. I was so used to finding game information on crappy Geocities sites that Mobygames blew me away with it's sheer usability. [/Q --end Maw wrote--]
That's exactly the reason why I joined MobyGames! Well, except one year ago. Personally I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with the usability of this site - light years better than flashy but horribly unusable layouts like Gamespot or GiantBomb use.
Daniel Saner (3467) on 6/18/2010 11:06 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
+1 vote. Out of all the things that make up MobyGames, I think the webdesign and frontend code is what needs the least improvement. Most other sites either overdo it with the graphics and the glitz and the flash, or dead-slow AJAX stuff, or both, making them really tedious to use. Deadly if you want to get actual work done. Sure, we're dealing in videogames here, but people visit the site to find information, and there faster is better.
I don't see what people dislike about the design. Some might have gotten (too) used to it, but objectively it doesn't look outdated or anything.
GAMEBOY COLOR! (1989) on 6/18/2010 11:14 PM · Permalink · Report
I still think the site could use some touching up. Smoother graphics, Javascript or CSS (But none of that cheasy gradient stuff.) could do wonders for the look of the site, while still keeping it super fast.
vedder (68267) on 7/12/2010 9:45 PM · Permalink · Report
I just accidentally stumbled on this:
http://www.sciere.be/moby_mockup.png
Why can't we have that? It's not brilliant - a bit too rainy sunday afternoon perhaps - but it's better than what we have now Imho.
Sciere (877338) on 7/12/2010 9:55 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
A full site redesign didn't seem possible, but Brian was open to a css redesign, especially since I'd really like the site to be fixed size because our descriptions and most of the content looks terrible on large resolutions. The lines are very long and I always work here windowed. I made that just to give an idea (fixed size, softer colours, etc.) and Brian was experimenting with it... there was a test version being worked on, but that stopped. It's one of the questions I hope he'll answer soon, since it seems very reasonable.
MegamanX64 (15996) on 7/14/2010 7:48 AM · Permalink · Report
I just want to say that I really like this mockup. It feels like Mobygames yet more contemporary. I think this is exactly what people here want. I personally don't mind the slightly gloomy appearance. Thumbs up!
j.raido 【雷堂嬢太朗】 (80073) on 7/14/2010 8:08 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start MegamanX64 wrote--]I just want to say that I really like this mockup. It feels like Mobygames yet more contemporary. I think this is exactly what people here want. I personally don't mind the slightly gloomy appearance. Thumbs up! [/Q --end MegamanX64 wrote--] I think the muted colors make it look a bit too clinical...not that the current design doesn't, mind you...but the design itself looks much more modern than what we have right now. Tweak the colors a bit and I'd vote for it in the primaries.
Unicorn Lynx (180491) on 6/19/2010 8:01 AM · Permalink · Report
Second that. I think the design of the site is the least of our problems now. And I also agree with Patrick that writing simple descriptions is not an impossible task. Judging by some posts here, it seems to me that our only concern is to attract more people. Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's not at all what MG is about. MG is about good contributions. If someone can't reach the standard, he should either try harder, or stop contributing.
Slow approval and no leadership are by far the biggest problems we have. We can argue about smaller issues till the Messiah comes, but until someone gets a grip on the site, all of that matters nothing.
Brian Hirt (10403) on 6/26/2010 9:38 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start MZ per X wrote--] Berk & Hirt Consulting is the company behind MobyGames. Why don't they let one of the developers they are obviously employing do some work on the site?
Will MobyGames turn Pro tomorrow or next year?
I think I will stop contributing until something substantially has happened or some of the questions in this thread have been answered. It hurts, but my time is valuable, so if I don't really know the final outcome of the time spent here, I'll spend it elsewhere for now. [/Q --end MZ per X wrote--]
I just want to clarify some things, because is seems like there is some misinformation on the web about MobyGames, especially with regards to who owns it and who works for it.
I have no idea what spoke.com is, but the information on there has nothing to do with reality, was not supplied by us, and is completely wrong. I'm clueless why they think what they do. Berk & Hirt consulting doesn't employ anyone. There are only 4 partners and 0 employees. The partners are me, Dave, Jim and Rob. Dave and I started Berk & Hirt consulting back before MobyGames existed to run our personal consulting businesses. When MobyGames started it made sense to run it through a company. It was convenient to use Berk & Hirt Consulting instead of creating a new company. Later on down the line Jim and Rob became partners. Dave and Jim are inactive and Rob and I spend whatever time we can on it. Presently, the only thing Berk & Hirt consulting does is run MobyGames. There are no other businesses run through Berk & Hirt Consulting.
As for MobyGames Pro, it was a short lived product that we created to help HR and recruiters in the industry to help vet resumes and find talent. We started it when we were approached by people in the industry requesting such a tool. All it did was provide some very specific searches and results. Everything that it searched and displayed was freely available on the site. It's not some future service in the works and was never a paywall or anything like that. It was our hope that the product would generate some revenue and allow us to work on MobyGames full time. It didn't pan out and was discontinued shortly after it started. Our core missions has always been to document video games and provide all collected information to the public for free. It was the only reason for starting MobyGames back in late 1998 and launching in march of 99. That mission hasn't changed in the 11 years since and we have no intention of making the site pay access or removing data from the public.
I'm talking with Sciere and Rob about the seven points he mentions below, i'll try to come up with some sort of summary of them and post them somewhere.
Pseudo_Intellectual (65289) on 6/27/2010 12:31 AM · Permalink · Report
Thank you!
Apogee IV (2279) on 6/22/2010 8:48 PM · Permalink · Report
For what it's worth, here's a blog entry by Trixter from 2007...
http://trixter.wordpress.com/2007/06/06/lost/
"When Brian and I started MobyGames nearly ten years ago, it was my life, my passion. I spent at least two years of my life on it, to the detriment of my marriage and relationship with my kids (something that has been rebuilt, but took years and was never quite the same). While there was a bit of a business shake-up internal to the organization, the core foundation of MobyGames is still there; it remains true to our vision and it is useful, self-sustaining, and well-known. I should be working on it every day… or every weekend, right? Or at least once a month? Check the boards once in a while? You would think that… and you’d be wrong. I love MobyGames with my intellectual mind, but can’t find it in my heart to work on it as you would think befitting of a founder."
game nostalgia (5610) on 6/22/2010 10:41 PM · Permalink · Report
OK (@ Apogee IV) , but as some have already pointed out, there are some who are in the position to contact him or others. And there may be other founders who read the postings. You can check yourself that one of the people behind MG just posted in another thread (“photos of developers”).
With regard to the original subject of this thread it was pointed out that a problem preventing innovation might be the fact that MG's code is protected. It gave rise to the more general question about the “status and future” of MG. Those are important questions, and they shouldn't be avoided, but they should be answered. If one (seriously) contributes for free to MG, I guess one is motivated by the ideal of a freely accessible database, and by the conviction that it will stay that way.
But that isn't sure and stays unsure as long as people don't get any answers, and because there are some indications that MG's status and future is "undetermined" or "problematic," to say the least. Some examples:
- Nowhere it is stated that MG is a free database (and that it will stay that way).
- Nowhere it is made clear what will happen if "the founders" lose interest (etc.).
- In the FAQ's it stated that once information is entered into MG’s database, it becomes the property of MG (compare the provisions when you sign up).
- As MZ per X pointed out, a few years ago MobyGames Pro was registered as a business service.
Now I think the claim about ownership of the contributed content is futile (as it can be easily avoided), and that a “MobyGames Pro” would become a very short-lived experiment (who would be willing to contribute for free in that case?).
This doesn't mean I think that these important questions shouldn't be answered and that the problems shouldn't be addressed. But to do so a change is needed, like Unicorn Lynx said: "Slow approval and no leadership are by far the biggest problems we have. We can argue about smaller issues till the Messiah comes, but until someone gets a grip on the site, all of that matters nothing."
Daniel Saner (3467) on 6/22/2010 10:57 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start game nostalgia wrote--]- Nowhere it is made clear what will happen if "the founders" lose interest (etc.).
[/Q --end game nostalgia wrote--]
I think we're in the middle of finding out...
I agree with what you say in your post. The notice that all data submitted to MG becomes their property is necessary, as I think has been discussed a few times, in order to ensure that MG will be able to provide the content indefinitely. If contributor's would not give MG the unlimited right for republication of the data, it could be requested to be taken down again etc., which would quickly become impossible for any site to manage. The clause is necessary to ensure that what is on the site stays on the site. The real problem is, as you also stated, that there is no guarantee, not even an informal statement that the data will continue to be available, and for free; nor is there a backup plan for what happens if the owners can at one point no longer maintain the site. Even a non-binding social contract like the one from Discogs I posted further up could be a good step in that direction. I can't honestly bring any criticism to a lack of submissions or slow approval rate because quite personally, my motivation to contribute to a community project is lacking if for all I know, my data I worked hard on could disappear tomorrow, or be taken over by some corporation whose business is contrary to the principles I thought the project stood for.
Sicarius (61484) on 6/24/2010 5:04 AM · edited · Permalink · Report
I find it telling that Mister Corn Popper is currently not only doing what he always does, meaning going through the database and manually changing information based on what his "big-time developer friends" tell him to without any other approvers looking over it or providing any other valid source for it I presume, but he's also frequenting the forum while still ignoring this thread.
That's leadership right there!
Just to clarify: I'm not hating CP for going through the database and fixing errors. I'm hating him for the ignorant "I'm the boss and I do what I want"-way he does it with. I've to stop here before I get too personal and emotional again - this is thread should all about be the future of MobyGames - but for me this behavior of one of our leaders alone shows that we really need big changes around here...
On the other hand: if he still goes through the database changing stuff, at least he seems to still care a little bit about the site...
BurningStickMan (17916) on 6/23/2010 6:34 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Apogee IV wrote--]For what it's worth, here's a blog entry by Trixter from 2007...
http://trixter.wordpress.com/2007/06/06/lost/ [/Q --end Apogee IV wrote--]
Good find, and if he chose family over Moby, then I don't think anyone can fault him for that.
Still, there's a difference between "founder" and "leader." He'll always be a founder, but if he doesn't want to lead or support Moby anymore, then he should find and appoint someone who does. Moby really needs a captain of the ship - someone who can make decisions, has the authority to answer questions, and give us a real idea of what's coming and how we're doing. The current admins can only do so much, and must go hat-in-hand to the founders to maybe get answers to the above questions.
Trixter's a good guy, but I have no interest in contributing to pay his bills (however much or little that revenue may be) if he can't even be arsed to think about a replacement.
Maw (833) on 6/24/2010 1:52 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start BurningStickMan wrote--] [Q2 --start Apogee IV wrote--]For what it's worth, here's a blog entry by Trixter from 2007...
http://trixter.wordpress.com/2007/06/06/lost/ [/Q2 --end Apogee IV wrote--]
Good find, and if he chose family over Moby, then I don't think anyone can fault him for that.
Still, there's a difference between "founder" and "leader." He'll always be a founder, but if he doesn't want to lead or support Moby anymore, then he should find and appoint someone who does. Moby really needs a captain of the ship - someone who can make decisions, has the authority to answer questions, and give us a real idea of what's coming and how we're doing. The current admins can only do so much, and must go hat-in-hand to the founders to maybe get answers to the above questions.
Trixter's a good guy, but I have no interest in contributing to pay his bills (however much or little that revenue may be) if he can't even be arsed to think about a replacement. [/Q --end BurningStickMan wrote--]
Way to put our problems in perspective, that jerk!
Corn Popper (68595) on 6/24/2010 4:50 PM · Permalink · Report
After finally getting to this thread I don't know where to start. So I'll simple paste some of what I already posted in another forum here...
I am here everyday... whether you know it or not. I often answer much of the actual emails people send in and make manual changes. I have been lacking in attention to the boards as I have a lot of other things going on other than Moby. I have a backlog of message board messages to read. The first part of July I'll be in Hawaii (floating around it at least) for Navy work, so then I'll have to catch up again when I get back. I can tell you this... the site is not dead and isn't going to to die. Brian and I have been talking and we're always looking at ways to drive traffic to the site which helps our bottom line.
Brian often gets bogged down with infrastructure stuff and bookkeeping which prevents him from actual coding fixes, improvements and new features. So a lot of things that seem like simple fixes are left alone for him to fix when he gets a chance simply because of the way the site is coded admins can't make easy changes.
The vocal public... message boards may seem to think we're adrift or whatever but I can tell you that developers love us, they just aren't vocal on the boards.
I am somewhat hesitant to open up too many platforms as it depends on the current queues. We're in a hole and I don't like add additional dirt to the pile if it seems we can't can't handle, especially the older ones in which we have very limited approvers.
If you have any questions at all I am always available...
Here are some of the quick answers...
- Who owns the site? Brian, Dave, Jim and myself. - just like in the FAQ
- Who are the founders? Brian and Jim.
- What is Berk and Hirt Consulting... basically the legal entity name to pay the bills.
- Jim sits as just a founder now and has no say on policy, though is consulted on issues.
- Dave is off the project and sits as an owner only. No real say in the site at all.
Sicarius (61484) on 6/24/2010 5:52 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
Thanks CP for the information and reassurance. Still the main issue remains unanswered: you yourself say that Brian is held up by other, more important site-relevant stuff. So what about the idea of getting a few experienced programmers either from the community or perhaps even paid (backed by a money-drive) on the project to help improve the backend of the site and by doing so decrease the amount of manual labor required to fix and maintain stuff?
Corn Popper (68595) on 6/25/2010 4:56 AM · Permalink · Report
For the most part that's been answered. I think if there were any experienced programmers in PERL they would have said something by now. Paid ones... not so sure we'd raise enough funds too especially in these economic times, but it's not out of the question, just unlikely even looking at the financial aspect... it's more Brian's call and not mine.
Sicarius (61484) on 6/25/2010 6:46 AM · edited · Permalink · Report
That limitation is another important argument for a whole redesign at least of the back-end. I'm sure the database is untouchable by now and has become an untaimable beast but creating a new back-end and building the necessary translation-interfaces to still access the old database would be a great improvement, not only allowing Brian to easier maintain the site but also making it easier to implement new/modernized features. Like I said its nothing that will happen in a week or so but I believe there are dedicated web-developers here who would be willing to tackle a project like that if Brian would open up to that idea and we would openly ask for help.
I know I should put my skills where my mouth is but although I'm a trained IT Technician, my programming skills are sadly too wide spread (meaning I know a bit of everything but nothing really good :) ) to be of any use in such a project. I could only contribute money and administrative help on such a project.
Especially if MobyGames keeps growing and growing a revamp of the core after so many years is inevitable.
BurningStickMan (17916) on 6/25/2010 2:48 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Corn Popper wrote--]For the most part that's been answered. I think if there were any experienced programmers in PERL they would have said something by now. Paid ones... not so sure we'd raise enough funds too especially in these economic times, but it's not out of the question, just unlikely even looking at the financial aspect... it's more Brian's call and not mine. [/Q --end Corn Popper wrote--]
I'm not a programmer so I'm likely mistaken, but isn't Perl used for database access? Meaning, the data which we've all been contributing sits separate and could be accessed through another interface?
If so, then Moby wouldn't be tied down to Perl. You still have the issue of finding an experienced programmer to do the work for free or cheap, but they could redesign the site in the programming language of their choice?
game nostalgia (5610) on 6/24/2010 6:09 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
@Corn Popper
Nice to read your comment, though I think it is very unsatisfactory (esp. the rather trivial questions at the end). I understand Brian and yourself work very hard, yet there are serious problems that should be addressed, and I think you should cooperate more/better with some of the people here, especially the ones who certainly deserve it (see contribution rating, first page).
"I can tell you this... the site is not dead and isn't going to to die. Brian and I have been talking and we're always looking at ways to drive traffic to the site which helps our bottom line."
But it may be dying if the concerns expressed here aren't taken seriously. For people will leave or stop their efforts (as some have done already).
It is not only a matter of "traffic," but also of "communication" (and organization and sharing responsibilities) between (the two of) you and the contributors and approvers.
That's at least what I am reading in this thread (as an outsider, more or less). I see contributors/approvers with rankings above 50.000 points expressing their concerns in this thread .... so what are you doing?
I think the owners seem to understand too little that there's a risk that MG will simply cease to exist when people who contribute for free get the impression that their ideals aren't shared - any more - by the founders/owners.
"If you have any questions at all I am always available..."
OK then, I summarize some of the questions that were posed in this thread and that deserve a serious answer in due course.
Is it possible
(1) to make use of the community to re-design the site?
(2) to express that MG is and will stay a free database?
(3) to design a back-up procedure in case the founders/owners lose interest?
Corn Popper (68595) on 6/25/2010 5:13 AM · Permalink · Report
I have a lot of interest in the site... being a major contributor myself I know and I have tons more to add to the site that I haven't had time to.
How do you mean cooperate exactly? Implement all the features they request? I've pretty much answered that - the limitations of the code right now. So that is simply on a side-burner for now.
One of the major things funds get spent on is more and more storage space for the site... we're really killing ourselves in that we get a lot of useful data that is good for the site but then we're needing to upgrade and make optimizations to run the site better.
The owners - the active ones, know the risk at hand.
1 - it's not out of the question but as said before, experienced PERL programmers where are you?
2 - that I can never guarantee, as who knows what can happen, but it is our goal to keep it that way
3 - if for some reason the owners lost interest then it'll be known and measures would be taken.
Daniel Saner (3467) on 6/25/2010 12:49 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Corn Popper wrote--]2 - that I can never guarantee, as who knows what can happen, but it is our goal to keep it that way
[/Q --end Corn Popper wrote--]
It's good that this is your goal, and of course you can never really guarantee anything. But it must be possible to set up a social contract which says that access to the site and database will remain free for private use, or something along those lines. That's really all we're asking. The site may close down at one point, or it may change ownership; the point remains that anything but stating this as a highest principle of the project is unfair to contributors. Just like I suppose administrators feel strongly about the work they put into the project, community contributors who put a lot of work into their submissions in order to share them with the public deserve a reasonable guarantee that the public will actually have access to it in the long run. Which leads into:
[Q --start Corn Popper wrote--]3 - if for some reason the owners lost interest then it'll be known and measures would be taken.[/Q --end Corn Popper wrote--]
This sort of strikes me like the game publishers who promise that they will release an official crack to their online-activated games once the activation servers go down. It's a nice little promise, but not enough to warrant purchase of the game against knowledge about the problems involved. What if the activation servers go down because the publisher goes out of business? Developing a crack costs money, and I doubt anyone in that case would still feel obliged or responsible to do that work.
"If the owners lose interest, measures will be taken" is a bit contradictory - will they still be interested enough to take these measures? I second the opinion that a sort of "backup plan" is needed, a statement (maybe in the same social contract) on what will happen to the actual database if the site ever goes down, for example is no one is interested in paying for the server anymore. It happens to big sites daily - they just disappear without a trace and without a possibility for the former community to meet and discuss. This is the worst-case scenario for a site based on community contribution and simply has to be addressed.
I don't want to sound too critical either. It is just because I appreciate so much the effort everyone puts into the site that I think this is really necessary. The database would be nowhere near as comprehensive without the large number of contributors, and to ensure that contributions keep being made there needs to be some reassurement that all the work is not just going to disappear.
Unicorn Lynx (180491) on 6/25/2010 4:33 AM · Permalink · Report
If you have any questions at all I am always available...
Are you? I've been literally bombarding you with questions and suggestions about the site. You either didn't answer or your answer was short and vague.
You promised us more than a year ago to add several new platforms. They were supposed to be online by January 2010. This promise was not kept without any further explanation, despite the countless threads people have posted here. Now, half a year later, you say you don't want to add new platforms because of the long queues. Meanwhile, 4 other new platforms have been added in 2010, but not FM Towns and Sharp x68000. Why? Do they have shorter queues?
We had huge discussions concerning PC-98, and finally agreed to add it as a separate platform and move all Japanese DOS entries to it. This was not done. Why?
We've been discussing the long approval queues many times, and have made several suggestions concerning the approval structure. There was no reaction from either you or Brian.
In short, whenever we discussed concrete problems and made suggestions, the leadership (Jim, Dave, Brian and you, as you explain, but since you say Jim and Dave are out, that leaves Brian and you, am I right?) was silent.
Look, I'm not blaming you or Brian. You don't get paid for this. We are all volunteers. We all have lives outside of MobyGames. But the least we can expect from the leadership is an honest, concrete, and quick answer to our questions and suggestions. Yes or no, good or bad. But we are not getting even that. After all, we also spend our time thinking about these problems, asking questions and making suggestions.
I have a lot of other things going on other than Moby
We all do. The question is whether you and Brian have enough time and/or desire to at least establish a normal communication with the users. That's the very minimum we ask for. If you don't, then why don't you share your "power" with those who do have time/desire to answer questions and listen to suggestions?
Corn Popper (68595) on 6/25/2010 5:36 AM · Permalink · Report
So is your suggestion to add all kinds of platforms and just let the queues get even more backed up? It's not sound to build something if you don't have a good infrastructure... meaning that we really don't want to dig a deeper whole to let more dirt into it that we can't handle. And 4 new platforms in 6 months is lot more compared to the last few years.
PC-98 and JDOS... refer to above.
Approval queues... heh, I have a whole design on making it better, but that's a programming issue... refer to my other replies.
A lot of the fixes for suggestions for the site require program changes.. this has been in the past.
One of the reasons why some things go unanswered... do you like getting constantly told, no that's not going to happen or that it's a programming issue? If it's a non-programming issue things get fixed rather quickly... referring to several threads where manual adjustments are needed by admins.
I know everyone has lives outside of the site... I'm not saying we're the only ones, just saying we're very busy as well. But we're also interested in the site enough that it's evidently still running... bills getting paid to run it, minimal downtime...
As for communication, the forum threads can be very overwhelming to try and catch up on if you don't keep up on them, so it gets easier to not read them sometimes. If you want to really catch our attention, then address the thread to us specifically or message. The admin access has been shared...
Sciere (877338) on 6/25/2010 6:20 AM · edited · Permalink · Report
I would have preferred to do this through mail, but because the questions seem to get dodged with the same arguments from the past, just to maintain a status quo, I'll paste the recommendations I wrote in the mail to the founders and let the community weigh in. The founders/owners do no contribute any more, they do not approve items, they're not present in the forums and hardly anything changes on the site over time. So where does all that hard work behind the scenes lead to then? If a lot gets done, then there is a lot of inefficiency or a terrible form of communication, which made many people sign off already.
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The project needs a leader. Someone with the authority and power to make drastic changes when needed, with open communication to the users about the fundamental elements and policies of the site. This goes along with regular presence in the forums. There is no one now to defend old policies that have been set before many approvers and administrators joined the site. We abide by them, but there is no one to explain why. There is a complete lack of communication from anyone at the top and that is the source of most of the problems. There are rules, but nobody's talking or showing any interest. None of the founders would be able to do a proper game submission these days that is according to the policies, there is no connection with the user base any more.
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MobyGames should publish a social contract similar to Discogs (http://www.discogs.com/help/social-contract.html) with the promise not to sell user data or make people pay to access the site, and a vow to make all the content available freely for someone else to continue the project in the case that the site under current leadership comes to a halt. MobyGames needs copyright to protect its content, but the exclusive ownership of everything submitted is not fair to the group of contributors that build the site. In this regard the MobyGames Pro trademark (http://www.trademarkia.com/mobygames-pro-78749667.html) should be clarified openly.
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Who is the owner of MobyGames? Is it Berk & Hirt Consulting? Who are all these people and what is their stake in the project? The founders should come clean and be open about this. Who really holds the strings in this project?
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There should be more regular updates to improve usability of the site, and the contribution and approval process. People like the fast and minimal-looking infrastructure and do not demand a Giant Bomb-like redesign, just the updates to improve the site's usability. Many areas such as credits, most submission forms and the approval process are tiresome and outdated. People have even been making custom browser plug-ins to make certain processes clearer and less tedious. Most of the site's workings is very much outdated.
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Brian does not seem have enough time to work on the project regularly. Nobody blames him, he has done an incredible amount of work in the past, but it has been made this way that he is the only one who can work on the backend. Why should it be this way, why can't the community weigh in? I'm sure there are other programmers who would love to help out if they had the chance. Why can't the test server be opened up for additions introduced by knowledgeable contributors? Can't a part of the revenue generated by advertising be used to outsource work to another programmer if no other solution is possible? Why not take the risk to make the site open source for a number of people so they can work on a deployment at home, submit code to the test server and then have Brian approve it before it goes into production? Aren't we all working towards the same goal?
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A redesign of the homepage is in order to make the MobyGames project clear. Most people do not realize we do not sell games but are an encyclopedia. The goals and the contribution process should be clarified on the homepage with a much more modern look and different items. People would also like more tools to search the database (more operators to combine genres, specs, etc.). In the past a css redesign has been suggested (along with the need to make the site fixed width), but nothing has come of that. Again, communication is completely absent. Many other small changes are needed, such as the reorganization of related links, a way to source information contributed to the site, revisions of trivia items, and more.
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All text on the site in contribution and approval screens should be editable by administrators. Some pages are hilariously outdated with recommendations to use Internet Explorer 5.0 or higher or Netscape 6.0 as a "modern" browser. That makes the project look ridiculous. Just put that in the hands of the community and we will get it updated. We just don't have the chance to do it now. Almost anything should be made editable so Brian doesn't have to be bothered by it.
BurningStickMan (17916) on 6/26/2010 4:26 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Sciere wrote--]I would have preferred to do this through mail, but because the questions seem to get dodged with the same arguments from the past, just to maintain a status quo, I'll paste the recommendations I wrote in the mail to the founders and let the community weigh in. [/Q --end Sciere wrote--]
I think your post needs to start a new thread. This is a concise starting point that looks like it's going to get lost in this one.
Unicorn Lynx (180491) on 6/25/2010 7:09 AM · Permalink · Report
So is your suggestion to add all kinds of platforms and just let the queues get even more backed up?
That's not what my question was about. Once again: you've added BlackBerry, Electron, BBC, and DSi. Why not FM Towns and Sharp x6800? There were suggested long time ago, suggested repeatedly, and by several users. Why are they not there, while the other are?
To answer your question, I don't think backed-up queues have anything to do with the amount of platforms, rather with the way approvals are assigned and organized. In any case, I fail to understand why the 4 recently added platforms do not endanger the queues, while the 2 others that have been suggested before do.
PC-98 and JDOS... refer to above.
Refer to what? Adding PC-98 and redirecting all the Japanese DOS entries is a correction. There won't be more or less contributions if you do that, it's just another, more correct way of classification. What does this have to do with approval queues?
Sorry, but your answers sound awfully like avoiding the issue and not willing to give a straight answer.
Corn Popper (68595) on 6/25/2010 8:17 AM · Permalink · Report
Those particular platforms were added because another admin decided to push those forward, expect the DSi. Why those over the others? I don't know... I was asked if it would be OK to add those and I final approved them for release. There's some examples of sharing the power.
PC-98 and JDOS is actually a lot more work than you realize for the admins to change things manually. You can't just flip a switch and everything happens. For every little tech spec and other information in the system you have to go into each game, page by page to make changes. I've done this a lot already and requires a lot of time.
Unicorn Lynx (180491) on 6/25/2010 8:26 AM · edited · Permalink · Report
Why those over the others? I don't know...
A very characteristic answer, indeed!
I was asked if it would be OK to add those and I final approved them for release.
And yet again, I ask: why did you final approved those 4 and not the 2 you were asked before? Just curious.
For every little tech spec and other information in the system you have to go into each game, page by page to make changes.
No, you don't. All you have to do is add PC-98 as a new platform, then go here and move those 362 games to the new platform. There are no other changes to be made. Oh, naturally, you'll also have to remove the "Japanese DOS" tech spec from the site afterwards. I don't understand why it can't be done? How many discussions do we have to open before it's finally done?
Corn Popper (68595) on 6/25/2010 8:40 AM · Permalink · Report
I didn't input all the data to push those platforms... I was not asked if it was OK to add those other platforms because the admin did not ask to add those. You'd have to ask that admin why those 3 and not the others you're talking about. Why would I hold those 3 platforms hostage when those others haven't even been inputted into the site yet? Maybe the problem you're not seeing here is how the backend really works... if that's the case then you need to stop reading into things.
PC-98... Uh, yeah another aspect where you don't know how things work exactly and what it takes to make the change.
Unicorn Lynx (180491) on 6/25/2010 8:47 AM · Permalink · Report
I was not asked if it was OK to add those other platforms because the admin did not ask to add those. You'd have to ask that admin why those 3 and not the others you're talking about
OK. Which admin?
Why would I hold those 3 platforms hostage when those others haven't even been inputted into the site yet?
That was my question, actually...
Maybe the problem you're not seeing here is how the backend really works...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but am I the only one? Or, to be more precise: does anyone know how the backend really works?
PC-98... Uh, yeah another aspect where you don't know how things work exactly and what it takes to make the change.
What does it take to make the change?
Sciere (877338) on 6/25/2010 10:42 AM · edited · Permalink · Report
I added BBC Micro, Electron, Blackberry and Android because I was more familiar with them, not because it was more urgent. As I said in another thread, PC-98 is supposed to be next now, but I have to go through all the information that was posted about it here.
Also, remember that we had a lot of discussions first to determine if PC-98 really is a new platform and not a DOS-variant that could be grouped together. It's only fairly recently that we got to an agreement there.
I'm somewhat surprised you bring that up, because I thought you knew PC-98 was going to be the next platform to be added. I had already mentioned it to Corn Popper.
Unicorn Lynx (180491) on 6/25/2010 3:08 PM · Permalink · Report
I added BBC Micro, Electron, Blackberry and Android because I was more familiar with them, not because it was more urgent.
Complete sets of tech specs for FM Towns and Sharp x68000 have been waiting on the Mg Wiki for years, without exaggeration. Everything is ready. All we need is a boss to actually add these platforms. Yet it's not happening.
because I thought you knew PC-98 was going to be the next platform to be added
I'm sorry, but after so many things that were promised and yet never became reality, I'm having a hard time believing anything concerning a change in MobyGames. It's a bit like in that old "wolf, wolf!" fable.
Игги Друге (46154) on 6/27/2010 2:21 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Corn Popper wrote--]I didn't input all the data to push those platforms... I was not asked if it was OK to add those other platforms because the admin did not ask to add those. You'd have to ask that admin why those 3 and not the others you're talking about. [/Q --end Corn Popper wrote--]
The thing is, Mobygames is a community-driven project, and if a sufficient mass of contributors, approvers and even administrators feel that a feature needs to be introduced, they shouldn't have to ask anyone for permission. There are concerns involved, but they should be resolved through parliament. It's several years since there was a chat about the site and the policy with admins and approvers online, AFAIK.
[Q --start Corn Popper wrote--]PC-98... Uh, yeah another aspect where you don't know how things work exactly and what it takes to make the change. [/Q --end Corn Popper wrote--]
It is a change that needs to be undertaken sooner or later. With just over 300 games at the time of writing, now is the time. It won't be easier when there are a 1 000 games that need correcting. Perhaps Unicorn could help if he had the opportunity?
Unicorn Lynx (180491) on 6/27/2010 4:17 PM · Permalink · Report
It won't be easier when there are a 1 000 games that need correcting.
My point exactly, better do it now when PC-98 database here is relatively small. I can easily add 1000 more games, but I'm waiting till the new platform is there and all the corrections are made.
Perhaps Unicorn could help if he had the opportunity?
I already said I could do all the moving if I were given admin access temporarily, but anyway Sciere said he would do it, so that's not a problem. The problem is, like I said: those who want to do it can't; those who can, don't want to.
Patrick Bregger (290049) on 6/25/2010 8:32 AM · Permalink · Report
Sciere said it would take about an hour to convert all PC-98 games if he had a list.
Unicorn Lynx (180491) on 6/25/2010 8:34 AM · Permalink · Report
Sciere said it would take about an hour to convert all PC-98 games if he had a list.
Yup, I remember that too. And the list is just that link I posted.
Corn Popper (68595) on 6/25/2010 8:41 AM · Permalink · Report
He's not looking at full extent of what needs to be changed.
Unicorn Lynx (180491) on 6/25/2010 8:44 AM · Permalink · Report
He's not looking at full extent of what needs to be changed.
Ok. What needs to be changed?
Corn Popper (68595) on 6/25/2010 8:54 AM · Permalink · Report
OK here it is in detail...
- You have to add the new platform and all the tech specs, packaging, ratings etc... already that's over an hour.
- Setup all the approvers
- Final check for release/release public
- Go through the list PC-98 tech spec sheet to see what games need changing...
- Go one by one of each game and submit to add a new platform
- Approve all 300 some games
- Go one by one of each game and move all the old data to the name game entry
- Go to each old game and remove the obsolete tech spec
- Purge out the tech spec (rename for later use)
- If the old game was PC-98 only then you need to go to each of the old games and disapprove the platform
You're talking a full day of this only at the very least
Unicorn Lynx (180491) on 6/25/2010 9:32 AM · edited · Permalink · Report
You have to add the new platform and all the tech specs, packaging, ratings etc... already that's over an hour. Setup all the approvers. Final check for release/release public
You were willing to do all this for other platforms, why not for PC-98?
Go through the list PC-98 tech spec sheet to see what games need changing...
All of them. Didn't I just post a link to the list?
Go one by one of each game and submit to add a new platform
Why can't you just change their DOS platform to PC-98? Why do you have to re-submit them if they are already in the database?
Go one by one of each game and move all the old data to the name game entry
Again, maybe I'm misunderstanding something here, but isn't there a way to simply move the whole bunch of games to PC-98? I mean, the site can't possibly be coded so badly that the only way is what you are describing?
I'll be blunt: my impression is that you simply don't want to do that. If it is so, I think it would be simpler if you said so. Because honestly, if you thought it was the right thing to do, you would do it, right? No matter how much time it required? If you know that this has to be done, why delay it for months? It's another story if you don't want to do it. But then please let us know, either we find a way to do it without you, or just leave everything the way it is.
Patrick Bregger (290049) on 6/25/2010 10:35 AM · Permalink · Report
Sciere stated several times that he would be willing to do all the converting. As far as I understand this is the really time consuming task. All major work that's left to do is adding the platform itself. I really don't see the big problem in that regard.
Corn Popper (68595) on 6/25/2010 1:43 PM · Permalink · Report
The steps I laid out are hard facts in what it takes to make the change. I don't see how you guys can't get through. Adding a new platform is not the major work... it's the steps after that that take up the most time.
Patrick Bregger (290049) on 6/25/2010 2:13 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
We know that it is not possible to convert these games to a new platform easily. You and Sciere both laid out what steps are needed. But that is the point: Sciere also said that he is perfectly fine with doing this time consuming work. So I don't see how this work is a reason to don't add the platform - we already have a volunteer. A trustworthy one who already has the needed competences, no less.
And it doesn't really matter if this work is done in one day, one week or two months. As soon as it starts we know it will be done eventually.
Edit: And in contrast to other not supported platforms PC-98 games can be entered. Which means if we want to add the platform: the sooner the better. Every month we wait will result in even more work. Of course unless the PC-98 will never be a separate platform.
Corn Popper (68595) on 6/25/2010 11:32 PM · Permalink · Report
Err can you ever site that I said no it can't be added? I just detailed why other platforms have come before it. I've never said no and Sciere hasn't asked...
game nostalgia (5610) on 6/25/2010 8:47 AM · edited · Permalink · Report
Very well said Scierce. I totally agree with all your recommendations (in your previous longer post) !!
I hope others will express their support as well. Before they go into details: it's a strange phenomenon that there are always some people who seem to be in a rush to get away from more fundamental issues, and ruin a serious and important contribution like the one from Scierce. I hope his posting gets a serious reply and that the discussion will focus on the issues he put forward.
From Corn Popper's (makes me think of K.R. Popper, The Open Society and Its Ennemies) reply to some questions I understand he pretends not to understand what cooperation, communication and sharing responsibilities mean, even after all these postings ("How do you mean cooperate exactly? Implement all the features they request?").
Moreover he states that he can't guarantee that the site stays free. Why not? (MobyGames Pro again?) That answer makes one wonder why one should continue to contribute.
And a back-up procedure isn't necessary at the moment according to CP. Like the matter of the protected code, it means: "we keep things to ourselves. Let the rest of the ... just contribute or approve."
It's all very very disappointing. Sorry for being so negative, but the whole thread demonstrates that "there's something rotten."
Kabushi (258286) on 6/25/2010 9:29 AM · edited · Permalink · Report
I'd say that new platforms have a very limited impact on the approval queues overall. Most new platforms suggested are very old and therefore won't get many submissions at all. For example there is nothing in the Electron right now and just one new game in the BBC queue. Even such a big platform like the C64 just have a few items pending. Compare that to the PC and modern consoles that each have hundreds of items pending despite having more approvers.
Corn Popper (68595) on 6/25/2010 1:46 PM · Permalink · Report
Err, that's why I allowed those to get added to the site.... I didn't see much of a problem with them.
Unicorn Lynx (180491) on 6/25/2010 3:04 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
I didn't see much of a problem with them.
So which problem did you see with FM Towns and Sharp x68000? They are old too. FM Towns has less than a 100 games if I'm not mistaken. X68000 also doesn't have many. Chances are I'll be the only one adding new entries, since they are all Japanese-only (maybe djsw will help, too). I don't see how those two poor archaic platforms can influence the queues.
Corn Popper (68595) on 6/25/2010 11:36 PM · Permalink · Report
I'll also repeat myself here... I have been asked by Sciere to add those, why not those before the others... he answered that.
And asking doesn't guarantee a yes either... we've have to look at the state of the queues at the time and make some predictions on impact if any.
You think adding platforms is a simple thing... it simply is not as simple as you think, it's a little easier now than a year ago because of some fixes Brian made.
Unicorn Lynx (180491) on 6/26/2010 3:41 AM · Permalink · Report
And asking doesn't guarantee a yes either.
Then why did you promise to add those 2 platforms in January 2010? Afterwards people have repeatedly asked you why they are not yet there. The answer comes half a year later: because Sciere asked you to add something else first...
If you see nothing wrong with all that, then we'd better stop this discussion: it's not going anywhere.
Corn Popper (68595) on 6/26/2010 4:07 AM · Permalink · Report
sorry, but I never made a promise that I would add them
Unicorn Lynx (180491) on 6/26/2010 4:29 AM · Permalink · Report
sorry, but I never made a promise that I would add them
This is just one of the many others; I'm too lazy to go through forum archives.
I'm also pretty sure other people actually remember FM Towns and Sharp x68000 were the first platforms you promised to add in 2010.
Okay, I think your posts as a whole are a perfect illustration to what is wrong with MobyGames. If the leader himself promises things and then denies his own words, is unable to say a clear "yes" or "no" (even now!), then what can we expect from the site?
chirinea (47013) on 6/26/2010 4:47 AM · edited · Permalink · Report
Let's be fair: Rob didn't "promise" those platforms. Actually, in this thread (approvers only) he said he would "look into" the platforms mentioned in that thread. From those, Electron and BBC Micro were added and we have no reason to believe that the others wouldn't be ever added.
Corn Popper (68595) on 6/26/2010 4:48 AM · Permalink · Report
So where does it say those specific platforms? I saw nothing naming any particular platform.
chirinea (47013) on 6/26/2010 4:53 AM · edited · Permalink · Report
Anyway, instead of this discussion if platforms were or were not promised, let me ask: can we have an estimate date for those two specific platforms (FM Towns and Sharp x68000), Rob? Maybe we could have something like a schedule with estimated dates for new platforms?
Corn Popper (68595) on 6/26/2010 6:57 AM · Permalink · Report
For now that's up to Sciere and his time. But the earliest would be mid July after I get back.
jaes (1) on 7/3/2010 10:10 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
Seems like a good thread to ask for a few feature requests (I've mailed twice but never got a reply):
1) I like the Game Browser (and MobyGames in general), but sometimes it would be nice to be able to narrow down the browsing results even more; leaving out genres and re-releases are two examples.
2) In contrast, sometimes it would be nice to have more "usable" results in the GB; e.g. choose more genres, years and platforms in one search, still sometimes leaving other bits out, of course.
3) It would be great if it was possible to sort the results by MobyRank and MobyScore.
Any chance the above could be added?
Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but as far as I can see it's not possible to browse as mentioned above :)
EDIT: Can't delete the post so I'll leave it, but the "Moby Feature Wishlist" thread is probably more appropriate, since Corn Popper is reading that as well...
EDIT 2: I'm a bit tired, so another quick edit: Added a bit to 2)