Forums > MobyGames > Arcade format now open for contributions...
Simon Carless (1835) on 1/22/2014 12:19 AM · edited · Permalink · Report
Hey all,
We are now officially rolling out the arcade game format for MobyGames contributions - both adding arcade to existing platforms (there's quite a lot of that to be done!) and also adding brand-new arcade only games. This has been a long time coming, and congrats to everyone who lobbied for it - we're going to make it work!
Here's the current list of accepted arcade games - http://www.mobygames.com/browse/games/arcade/list-games/ - please note there's a glitch/cache issue with the default arcade browse we're working on!
Below is basically the finally approved tech specs that Sciere set up for us, along with some additional guide points from me. - Also please note that we will be reaching out to sites that might have flyers we could work with to add, since we know they are fairly rare :)
<hr />[ARCADE FORMAT ON MOBYGAMES]
Screenshots: Can be taken directly from arcade machine if you have a VGA output or some other method; if not, emulators such as MAME are acceptable. Original resolution is what we are looking for, obviously.
Publisher and developer and release date and credits: Can be handled as normal, pretty much.
Cover art: We will accept arcade game flyers in this area, since they include pictures of the cabinet in question and are easily scannable. We will also accept scanned arcade game headers/marquees.
Tech specs are as follows:
Number of players: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8
Multiplayer options: Hot Seat / Same/Split-Screen Multiplayer / LAN
Multiplayer Game Modes: Free-for-all / One-on-one / Co-Op / Team
Input method: Joystick (digital), joystick (analog), paddle, lightgun, trackball, steering wheel, pedals, computer keyboard, touch screen, motion sensor, dance pad, instrument controller, mahjong, custom. (Per-player) 1 button, 2 buttons, 3 buttons, 4 buttons, 5 buttons, 6 buttons, 7 buttons, 8 buttons, 9 buttons.
Misc: memory card
Screen: Color, black & white; raster, vector; landscape, portrait.
Formats: JAMMA, Non-JAMMA, Capcom CP System II (CPS2), Capcom CP System III (CPS3), Sega Mega Play, Sega Mega Tech, Sega ST-V, Sega Naomi, Sega Naomi 2, Sega Naomi GD-ROM System, Sega Naomi 2 GD-ROM System, Sega Chihiro, Sega Triforce, Sammy Atomiswave, Data East DECO Cassette System, Data East MLC System, SNK NeoGeo MVS, SNK Hyper NeoGeo 64, Taito F3 System, Taito G-Net, Konami Bubble System, Kaneko Super Nova System, Seta Aleck64, Seibu SPI, IGS PGM, IGS PGM2, BrezzaSoft Crystal System, Nintendo PlayChoice-10
Everything else to be set up with Groups...
<hr />[EDIT: couple of small changes made!]
chirinea (47064) on 1/22/2014 1:00 AM · Permalink · Report
I asked this in the approvers forums, but I'll ask here just as well: how do we treat this kind of thing?
Simon Carless (1835) on 1/22/2014 3:16 AM · Permalink · Report
I also replied there, but I suggest via Groups if you really want to go after board types :) That's a lot of work tho! Right now we're just doing checkboxes for those things with interchangeable carts.
Rola (8131) on 1/22/2014 1:08 AM · edited · Permalink · Report
Thanks for the guidelines. Basically the only details we miss compared to our competition would be:
controller details (eg: 2 button, 8-way joystick)
sound capabilities (mono, stereo...)
cabinet style (upright, cockpit...)
monitor resolution
How about renaming landscape/portrait to horizontal/vertical?
vileyn0id_8088 (20958) on 1/22/2014 2:23 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Rola wrote--]Thanks for the guidelines. Basically the only details we miss compared to our competition would be:
controller details (eg: 2 button, 8-way joystick)
sound capabilities (mono, stereo...)
cabinet style (upright, cockpit...)
monitor resolution[/Q --end Rola wrote--] Agreed, with the possible exception of monitor resolutions... we could end up with thousands of checkboxes there. Maybe that could be implemented as two separate fields (width, height) that should have free numeric input.
Would also like some tips about accepted/reliable sources for this platform, regarding release years/credits. Especially with earlier games that do not typically have the credits visible.
Simon Carless (1835) on 1/22/2014 3:25 AM · Permalink · Report
Reliable sources is tricky - looks like Arcade History and Arcade Museum (KLOV) are starting to be cited but I don't know if anyone has major opinions here. KLOV is certainly the longest-running archive.
For release date, what do we think of the title screen copyright? Bad, good?
Simon Carless (1835) on 1/22/2014 3:21 AM · edited · Permalink · Report
I think Landscape/portrait are used elsewhere, aren't they? It does read a little unintuitively though...
You're right that we are missing number of buttons, which I'd forgotten about - that should probably be added. What's the best format for that? Simply 'number of buttons per player'?
[EDIT: We've now added '1 button' to '9 buttons' to input - which is talking about buttons per player. I really hope there's nothing with >9. So you would put 'analog joystick, 3 buttons', etc...
We are definitively skipping audio (mono/stereo), monitor resolution, cabinet style, and sound capabilities in tech specs. You can enter the rarer ones in groups if you want...]
GTramp (81867) on 1/22/2014 2:21 AM · edited · Permalink · Report
Naming. Should the original arcade name of the game prevail in case the game's title was changed during porting? Example: http://www.mobygames.com/game/arkanoid-ii-revenge-of-doh ; http://www.arcade-museum.com/game_detail.php?game_id=6917 (No "II" in title)
Also, the title in the manual is different yet again: http://www.arcade-museum.com/manuals-videogames/A/arkanoid2-doh.pdf Arkanoid 2: Revenge of DOH. Which one prevails?
Also, what about PlayChoice-10?
Simon Carless (1835) on 1/22/2014 3:23 AM · Permalink · Report
I think PlayChoice-10 was meant to be in formats...we'll get added.
Re: original arcade name prevailing, that's a tricky one. Anyone?
j.raido 【雷堂嬢太朗】 (85248) on 1/22/2014 3:28 AM · Permalink · Report
I don't see how it's any different than what we had previously: Earliest English release takes precedence. Which means we can finally get rid of a few of those silly cases like "Darius+".
Simon Carless (1835) on 1/22/2014 3:29 AM · Permalink · Report
OK, deal!
Pseudo_Intellectual (65481) on 1/22/2014 3:27 AM · Permalink · Report
My question is: once an arcade game platform is added to a game entry with home conversions, does it retain the "coin op port" genre of the original entry or does that get swept away, ultimately deprecated?
Simon Carless (1835) on 1/22/2014 3:28 AM · Permalink · Report
Coin-op conversion will need to get removed eventually, yes - this came up briefly in the approver forum thread.
j.raido 【雷堂嬢太朗】 (85248) on 1/22/2014 3:29 AM · Permalink · Report
Yep, those are being removed after games are approved. For now, they're being used as a guideline for what needs a new platform.
Pseudo_Intellectual (65481) on 1/22/2014 3:32 AM · Permalink · Report
Oh wait, I can now see that this has been addressed in the other thread. Carry on!
Pseudo_Intellectual (65481) on 1/23/2014 3:48 AM · Permalink · Report
Actually, here's the case for keeping it that I just came up with: to distinguish between arcade-to-home conversions, and the rarer case of home-to-arcade conversions.
chirinea (47064) on 1/23/2014 4:20 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Pseudo_Intellectual wrote--]Actually, here's the case for keeping it that I just came up with: to distinguish between arcade-to-home conversions, and the rarer case of home-to-arcade conversions. [/Q --end Pseudo_Intellectual wrote--]Someone also mentioned it in some other thread, then commenting that maybe it wouldn't be enough reason.
I came to a case that could maybe justify keeping it. Ridge Racer for the PSOne and Ridge Racer for the Zeebo. When I submitted the later I did a research and decided to keep it separate. It seemed to me that the PSOne version was more complex; both were coin-op conversions, even if the Zeebo/Mobile one wasn't as perfect as the other. So maybe the PSOne would get the Arcade platform and the other wouldn't. But then again, I'm also thinking in merging those entries, if I can verify enough similarity.
Simon Carless (1835) on 1/22/2014 5:09 AM · Permalink · Report
Yep - because it's quite a small number we want it dealt with in Groups.
Simon Carless (1835) on 1/22/2014 5:17 AM · Permalink · Report
Doesn't it get a bit rabbit-hole-y then?
chirinea (47064) on 1/22/2014 5:38 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Simon Carless wrote--]Doesn't it get a bit rabbit-hole-y then? [/Q --end Simon Carless wrote--]I'm not sure what you've meant (I get the reference, but I'm not familiar with the expression). I know it doesn't really work as an argument, but we have tech-specs with little amount of games representing them, like this.
j.raido 【雷堂嬢太朗】 (85248) on 1/22/2014 5:45 AM · Permalink · Report
Basically, if we do it for the one, then we've created precedent to do it for all of them, which will result in a hideous mass of hundreds of twice-used tech specs.
Indra was here (20633) on 1/22/2014 9:34 AM · Permalink · Report
Game groups are also a mess. It's now more of a 'stuff we don't know where to put' kind of area. If some of them can be relocated to other categories, the better.
Trixter (8946) on 1/22/2014 8:47 AM · Permalink · Report
While I applaud the addition of the Arcade platform, I'm a little concerned about how the Video tech specs were created. That field was meant as individual screen modes that are supported, but it looks like it's been overloaded for Arcade -- I see things like Portrait and Raster as screen modes, but that implies the arcade supports either "portrait" OR "raster" when it operates, not both at the same time. It's like the video tech specs are being used as tags, which was not how the system was originally structured.
If I were designing it, I'd add new video description types for Arcade:
Video orientation: portrait, landscape, multi-screen (ie. Punch-Out!)
Video generation: Raster, Vector
Video color: Monochrome, Color
I hope it's not too late to consider changing this before the # of entries skyrockets...
Игги Друге (46151) on 1/22/2014 11:04 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Trixter wrote--]While I applaud the addition of the Arcade platform[/Q --end Trixter wrote--]
You what? You and your fellows have fought the introduction of arcade games on this site since the year 2001. Otherwise we wouldn't have had to wait for two changes in ownership for the biggest missing piece of gaming history to be added.
You had ten years to add the arcade platform, it took Mr. Carless all of one month to do it.
Simon Carless (1835) on 1/22/2014 2:47 PM · Permalink · Report
Hey Jim - yep, we did have a lengthy conversation in approver forums about this. Happy to hear from one of the actual founders - but what's the actual practical difference here, though? You can still see everything listed and sort by them.
(Input modes are also being used in a tag-like way at this point - for example 'joystick' and '3 buttons' - is that also not as originally intended?)
Trixter (8946) on 1/23/2014 12:29 AM · edited · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Simon Carless wrote--]
(Input modes are also being used in a tag-like way at this point - for example 'joystick' and '3 buttons' - is that also not as originally intended?) [/Q --end Simon Carless wrote--]
It is not as originally intended, as it de-normalizes the database.
For illustration: If tech specs were tags, then it "should" be possible to run a game with both CGA and VGA graphics simultaneously. It isn't, of course; they're mutually exclusive. Tech specs != tags.
If this is the new direction, then I'm wrong, of course. All applications and databases can be refactored given enough time and effort.
Игги Друге (46151) on 1/23/2014 2:00 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Trixter wrote--]
For illustration: If tech specs were tags, then it "should" be possible to run a game with both CGA and VGA graphics simultaneously. It isn't, of course; they're mutually exclusive.
[/Q --end Trixter wrote--]
Not simultaneously, but based on the same binary – why not?
vileyn0id_8088 (20958) on 1/23/2014 2:05 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Trixter wrote--]For illustration: If tech specs were tags, then it "should" be possible to run a game with both CGA and VGA graphics simultaneously. It isn't, of course; they're mutually exclusive.[/Q --end Trixter wrote--] True, though to be fair there are counter-examples stretching way back - as evidenced by the number of 1st-person shooters played with the keyboard and mouse simultaneously.
That said, I do agree with your general point, if only because it makes the game browser more intuitive!
Игги Друге (46151) on 1/23/2014 3:24 AM · Permalink · Report
It took all of an hour for me to add a game which was available both with colour and monochrome screen, so those aren't mutually exclusive.
Rola (8131) on 1/22/2014 3:40 PM · Permalink · Report
I agree. I assume it only takes changing checkboxes into drop-down menus in the frontend - this isn't changing data already in the database?
If we're talking about this - also put all those buttons in a drop-down menu:
Buttons per joystick: [2 buttons|V]
666gonzo666 (66200) on 1/22/2014 9:54 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Simon Carless wrote--]
Input method: Joystick (digital), joystick (analog), paddle, lightgun, trackball, steering wheel, pedals, computer keyboard, touch screen, motion sensor, dance pad, instrument controller, mahjong, custom. (Per-player) 1 button, 2 buttons, 3 buttons, 4 buttons, 5 buttons, 6 buttons, 7 buttons, 8 buttons, 9 buttons.
[/Q --end Simon Carless wrote--] Rotary joysticks from Ikari Warriors should be too.
Simon Carless (1835) on 1/22/2014 2:49 PM · Permalink · Report
Are there enough games with rotary joysticks to make this into a tech spec? (If there's >20 games that use them then I would say yes and I'll add it - anyone have any ideas?)
Foxhack (31938) on 1/22/2014 8:14 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Simon Carless wrote--]Are there enough games with rotary joysticks to make this into a tech spec? (If there's >20 games that use them then I would say yes and I'll add it - anyone have any ideas?) [/Q --end Simon Carless wrote--]Ugh, screw you, stupid formatting cleanup...
Go to Google and enter the following search parameters:
site:www.arcade-museum.com "rotary" "videogame"
That'll get you 251 results. Keeping in mind that the search might include mechanical games, there should be at least 100 games that have them as a control feature.
Игги Друге (46151) on 1/23/2014 2:00 AM · Permalink · Report
Doesn't "rotary" refer mostly to paddles?
Foxhack (31938) on 1/23/2014 5:52 AM · edited · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Игги Друге wrote--]Doesn't "rotary" refer mostly to paddles? [/Q --end Игги Друге wrote--]Eeeeeeeh... not always. There are games with "clicky" rotary sticks. You turn the stick around to point at somewhere and you fire with a button.
I narrowed down the search further with the following string:
site:www.arcade-museum.com/game_detail.php "rotary" "videogame" "joystick"
-- and got around 39 results. So it still qualifies for a tech spec. I would try to verify that everything uses a stick, but my ISP decided Arcade Museum is now unavailable to me. I hate my ISP.
Игги Друге (46151) on 1/22/2014 11:05 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Simon Carless wrote--] (Per-player) 1 button, 2 buttons, 3 buttons, 4 buttons, 5 buttons, 6 buttons, 7 buttons, 8 buttons, 9 buttons.[/Q --end Simon Carless wrote--]
I take it this means that only buttons used for actual game play are counted, and not select or start buttons?
Simon Carless (1835) on 1/22/2014 2:45 PM · Permalink · Report
Correct, NOT counting start and select buttons (this is how KLOV does it also.)
Lampbane (13583) on 1/22/2014 7:34 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Simon Carless wrote--]Everything else to be set up with Groups... [/Q --end Simon Carless wrote--] So I assume that includes games that use paper trading cards (with barcodes), and RFID and NFC machines as well?
I know they're probably mostly limited to Japan, but I remember when they tried to bring Mushiking and Love and Berry to the States, and I saw some Aime machines (like Code of Joker) in the arcades on my last trip to Tokyo.
But I understand the whole thing about "down the rabbit hole," as even I don't know all the different specs for that.
Simon Carless (1835) on 1/22/2014 11:37 PM · Permalink · Report
Yep, paper trading cards, RFIC, NFC, all groups. Thanks!
LepricahnsGold (142479) on 1/22/2014 10:14 PM · Permalink · Report
Personally, I would call the new format 'Coin-op arcade' or just 'Coin-op' because Arcade is also a genre. True, most arcades are button-mashers, shooters or racing (with the oddball exception, like "Thayer's Quest") but I think it would be less confusing.
Simon Carless (1835) on 1/22/2014 11:40 PM · Permalink · Report
The actual arcade genre, having looked at it, is pretty muddled imho... definitionally I think it's problematic itself. So I'm OK with arcade - it's better known than coin-op, and coin-op sometimes implies beyond the video game side. (And we set it up now..)
Игги Друге (46151) on 1/23/2014 2:03 AM · Permalink · Report
While the arcade genre is muddled and problematic, it isn't worse than most other genres. Look at "strategy" or "simulation" for thoroughly muddled genres.
Pseudo_Intellectual (65481) on 1/23/2014 3:50 AM · Permalink · Report
Could "adventure" be the most muddled of all?
I used to do an annual audit of "interactive fiction" and would consistently find dozens of titles that were inaccurately filed.
Indra was here (20633) on 1/23/2014 4:06 AM · Permalink · Report
Yes, kill the adventure genre! Kill it. KILL IT!
Pseudo_Intellectual (65481) on 1/23/2014 3:49 AM · Permalink · Report
Coin-op suggests pinball and redemption machines methinks. Which, y'know, we can take on someday, but not yet 8)
Игги Друге (46151) on 1/23/2014 5:56 AM · Permalink · Report
...while arcade signifies nickelodeons and jukeboxes.
LepricahnsGold (142479) on 1/25/2014 3:30 PM · Permalink · Report
How about Coin-op videogames, then?
vileyn0id_8088 (20958) on 1/23/2014 1:49 PM · Permalink · Report
Looks like some descriptions could use a revision now that the arcade platform has been added... case in point, the 2nd paragraph here.
Simon Carless (1835) on 1/23/2014 3:18 PM · Permalink · Report
Yeah, I'm noticing a lot of descriptions imply (subtly) that the arcade version is not included, so that's a long-term project.
Muerto on 1/23/2014 3:47 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
Hello. New here, read about your upcoming arcade data base on DLF, and think its a really great idea! Take for example Donkey Kong, or any other game that has a dedicated cabinet, are you planning to show that in the "There is no Arcade cover art on file for this game" box?
-EDIT- Theres smoe discusion going on at DLF, where this was asked: I'm missing a section where cabinet pictures can be added. whole cab, controlpanel, sides, kickplate, marquee, bezel, etc.
Fred VT (25789) on 1/23/2014 3:55 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Muerto wrote--]Hello. New here, read about your upcoming arcade data base on DLF, and think its a really great idea! Take for example Donkey Kong, or any other game that has a dedicated cabinet, are you planning to show that in the "There is no Arcade cover art on file for this game" box? [/Q --end Muerto wrote--]
Answer:
"Cover art: We will accept arcade game flyers in this area, since they include pictures of the cabinet in question and are easily scannable. We will also accept scanned arcade game headers/marquees."
Muerto on 1/23/2014 4:02 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Fred VT wrote--] "Cover art: We will accept arcade game flyers in this area, since they include pictures of the cabinet in question and are easily scannable. We will also accept scanned arcade game headers/marquees." [/Q --end Fred VT wrote--]
Ok, Then I personally would go for Marquees, that was the thing that stood out in the arcades back in the days, and drawed your attention when scanning a row of arcade games..
Though, not every game had their own marquee, or dedicated cab for that matter... Don´t know what would be displayed here...
vileyn0id_8088 (20958) on 1/23/2014 4:48 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Simon Carless wrote--]Yeah, I'm noticing a lot of descriptions imply (subtly) that the arcade version is not included, so that's a long-term project. [/Q --end Simon Carless wrote--] I'd simply like to motion anyone who submits Arcade as a new platform to quickly skim through the existing description, and try to make a small edit if needed. Should be quick and simple enough, and even I would suspend my burning hatred of revisions to do it. :P
Stefan Lindberg (17) on 1/23/2014 8:59 PM · Permalink · Report
JAMMA and Non-JAMMA don't belong with systems, they could be listed under "Pinout" though where you select jamma or nonjamma.
And why is not CPS listed as a system when both CPS2 and CPS3 is?
I like the idea with adding "rotary joystick" mentioned in this thread.
Stereo/mono sound would also be good info :-)
And maybe "monitor overlay" also could be added as a choice?
Simon Carless (1835) on 1/23/2014 11:22 PM · Permalink · Report
Stefan, we're only having systems in tickboxes that are cartridge or disc-based interchangeable, and CPS is not - had to draw the line SOMEWHERE.
The other points are fair and I'm going to try to make some FINAL changes tonight, at least on rotary joystick and maybe on some others. We have people actively contributing now so I wanna try to stop making lots of incremental changes. :)
Pseudo_Intellectual (65481) on 1/23/2014 11:43 PM · Permalink · Report
Trying to figure out how best to sum up the arcade interface of Narc (, Smash TV, Robotron, etc.) it occurs to me that we ought to in some way be able to tag a game as a dual-stick shooter, as it's a pretty unique interface. Maybe not as a tech spec, maybe just a game group for now.
vedder (68292) on 1/24/2014 8:40 AM · Permalink · Report
It already is: http://www.mobygames.com/game-group/genre-dual-twin-stick-shooter
Pseudo_Intellectual (65481) on 1/25/2014 3:39 AM · Permalink · Report
OK, we got twin sticks! Three questions, one related: would it be worth differentiating Robotron twin stick (one moves, one shoots) from Battlezone twin sticks (tank steering)?
Also: entering Night Driver made me ask, do we need a gear shifter input option?
Also: great to see colour overlays with us now, should they be moved up to the video display spec area?
Игги Друге (46151) on 1/25/2014 4:04 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Pseudo_Intellectual wrote--]OK, we got twin sticks! Three questions, one related: would it be worth differentiating Robotron twin stick (one moves, one shoots) from Battlezone twin sticks (tank steering)?
Also: entering Night Driver made me ask, do we need a gear shifter input option?
Also: great to see colour overlays with us now, should they be moved up to the video display spec area? [/Q --end Pseudo_Intellectual wrote--]
Pseudo_Intellectual (65481) on 1/25/2014 4:19 AM · Permalink · Report
I know, sometimes I'm so thorough it's just difficult to find anything to add.
Pseudo_Intellectual (65481) on 1/25/2014 4:20 AM · Permalink · Report
Another tech spec suggestion, while adding After Burner: is a throttle just a joystick?
Pseudo_Intellectual (65481) on 1/25/2014 5:04 AM · Permalink · Report
And just what is Paperboy's "bicycle yoke" equivalent to?
Игги Друге (46151) on 1/25/2014 6:15 AM · Permalink · Report
It's equivalent to a fishing rod – i.e. an "other" input type.
Игги Друге (46151) on 1/25/2014 6:16 AM · Permalink · Report
Don't think so. Perhaps it could be integrated into pedals and shift stick.
Игги Друге (46151) on 1/25/2014 6:14 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Pseudo_Intellectual wrote--]I know, sometimes I'm so thorough it's just difficult to find anything to add.[/Q --end Pseudo_Intellectual wrote--]
Sorry, sometime it's difficult to post from an internet tablet.
[Q --start Pseudo_Intellectual wrote--]OK, we got twin sticks! Three questions, one related: would it be worth differentiating Robotron twin stick (one moves, one shoots) from Battlezone twin sticks (tank steering)?[/Q --end Pseudo_Intellectual wrote--]
I don't think so.
[Q --start Pseudo_Intellectual wrote--]Also: entering Night Driver made me ask, do we need a gear shifter input option?[/Q --end Pseudo_Intellectual wrote--]
We even have two kinds: Stick shift and paddle shift. Perhaps they could be integrated with the pedals spec?
[Q --start Pseudo_Intellectual wrote--]Also: great to see colour overlays with us now, should they be moved up to the video display spec area?[/Q --end Pseudo_Intellectual wrote--]
I would say so, yes.
Simon Carless (1835) on 1/25/2014 4:18 PM · Permalink · Report
So we want pedals adding? Re: moving Color Overlays, it's staying in misc for now cos we need a reorg of that video area eventually...
Rola (8131) on 1/25/2014 4:25 PM · Permalink · Report
Speaking of twin joystick control, we have more than just a group:
http://www.mobygames.com/attribute/sheet/attributeId,48/
Why not reuse it?
Simon Carless (1835) on 1/24/2014 3:33 AM · edited · Permalink · Report
OK, I just added the following:
Monitor overlay (in misc); Mono and stereo (in sound); Joystick (rotary) (in input); Twin joysticks (in input); Multiscreen (in video modes);
I also removed JAMMA/non-JAMMA from Input devices and put them in a new area called Arcade pinouts because that WAS confusing/incorrect - CPS2 is also JAMMA and some things are non-JAMMA completely and that's it... sorry for anyone who entered that already.
We are keeping Color/Black & White; Vector/Raster; Portrait; Landscape in the same Video Inputs section for now but hope to split out in code at some later date since it's not QUITE organizationally correct.
(But it's working and quite a few people entered those already so don't want to change right now.)
That's it - unstickying this thread now but keep contributing! :)
Simon Carless (1835) on 1/24/2014 9:44 PM · Permalink · Report
You are correct - Mono/Stereo was only otherwise used for Wonderswan (!) and there was a start date of 1989 in there. I think I fixed it...
Stefan Lindberg (17) on 1/24/2014 4:14 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Simon Carless wrote--]Stefan, we're only having systems in tickboxes that are cartridge or disc-based interchangeable, and CPS is not - had to draw the line SOMEWHERE. [/Q --end Simon Carless wrote--]
Jaleco Mega System 32 is also cartridge based :-)
But really... not listing all systems because they are not having cartridges feels very wrong, especially for a game database as Mobygames. As an arcade collecter can i make no sense of that decision?
Simon Carless (1835) on 1/24/2014 4:44 AM · Permalink · Report
Tell you what, PM me with your impression of a complete list and we can discuss it. We're just nervous about the incredibly complex hardware variations - we've seen the System-16 list!
Игги Друге (46151) on 1/24/2014 5:34 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Stefan Lindberg wrote--] But really... not listing all systems because they are not having cartridges feels very wrong, especially for a game database as Mobygames. As an arcade collecter can i make no sense of that decision? [/Q --end Stefan Lindberg wrote--]
If we listed all the systems, the list would be endless. For those inclined, there are already sites that concentrate on those technical things. This was the only way arcade games could be introduced in the database, and it's taken over ten years to do it.
Perhaps it would have been smarter not to list any system.
Simon Carless (1835) on 1/24/2014 6:03 AM · Permalink · Report
'Other' is now in there for completeness' sake. Believe me, we have a HECK of a lot of work to do just getting descriptions and screenshots correct and flowed in, before we get to a lot of these details...
Stefan Lindberg (17) on 1/25/2014 6:05 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Игги Друге wrote--] Perhaps it would have been smarter not to list any system. [/Q --end Игги Друге wrote--]
Yes it is probably better to not list systems and just have them as groups. As i said it makes no sense to list only systems that uses PCB's with plastic around them and ignoring even bigger systems because they are not in a plastic case. And the list may get pretty big if all systems ar eto be listed.
And then there is the question what actually counts as a "system"?
Stefan Lindberg (17) on 2/2/2014 2:32 PM · Permalink · Report
No one want to discuss more about this system categorizing? :)
Why was it wanted in the first place? And What is considered a sytem? Is a system only a system when it was marketed as a "system".. like Taito F3 (for wich the early games do not come in cartridge form but Taito consider them F3). Taito F2 was also marketed as system but is not listed here.
Игги Друге (46151) on 2/2/2014 7:05 PM · Permalink · Report
I don't know what KLOV or System16 or MAME considers a system, but Mobygames does acknowledge that there are more systems out there than can be tracked using Mobygames's system. The reason cartridge and disk based systems are tracked is that it's something which is interesting to track out of more reasons than technical curiosity. While it's an interesting fact that Popeye runs on Donkey Kong hardware, the fact that a game cartridge fits a CPS or MVS system is more than interesting if you own that system, it's good to know.
Another system we're missing is Century CVS.
Stefan Lindberg (17) on 2/4/2014 7:02 PM · Permalink · Report
Ok, i think i understand now, basically systems is those you change the media and it becomes another game.. sort of. Sometimes they use cartridges (like MVS) and sometimes it is loose eproms you replace on the PCB (like Nintendo PlayChoice-10). I will send an more updated list to Simon Carless.
LepricahnsGold (142479) on 1/24/2014 12:07 AM · Permalink · Report
I agree with monitor overlay. Many games had that: Exidy's Circus, Battlezone, Armor Attack, etc.
Patrick Bregger (290568) on 1/24/2014 3:36 PM · Permalink · Report
I'm glad I saved all Arcade MobyRanks I ran into during the last years in an Excel file despite being sure I'll never need them.
NewRisingSun (1009) on 1/24/2014 8:48 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
Is it imperative that screenshots taken from MAME are exactly as they appear with the default settings with no Gamma etc. adjustment whatsoever? I'm asking because some games like Gradius (a.k.a. Nemesis) are extremely bright on MAME:
http://www.symphoniae.com/nrs/nemesis0000.png
http://www.symphoniae.com/nrs/nemesis0001.png
when compared to the output from a real PCB: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GylsWGtfcIE
and the "arcade perfect" Playstation port (which the MAME team claims doesn't count for anything): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5wBgyHJOo0
This affects other games as well (Karnov, Contra), but Gradius is almost intolerable on MAME with no adjustments.
Simon Carless (1835) on 1/24/2014 9:48 PM · Permalink · Report
Good question. I'm personally fine with slight adjustments to make it look correct - there are far worse errors/changes committed in screenshot submissions than that. Others may disagree though :)
Stefan Lindberg (17) on 1/25/2014 5:58 PM · Permalink · Report
If modified screenshots are ok then maybe it is a good idea to mention in the screenshot comment that the screenshot is gamma adjusted? Maybe also in the file name.
And even better... to have the first screenshot unmodified just to show how it really is before you adjust the arcade monitor :-)
NewRisingSun (1009) on 1/25/2014 9:07 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
"to have the first screenshot unmodified just to show how it really is before you adjust the arcade monitor"
My point was that I accuse MAME of displaying a few games improperly, that is, different from what an arcade PCB would output, and the adjustments would correct that. It's not about applying modifications to make a game look different from "how it really is".
Stefan Lindberg (17) on 1/25/2014 10:58 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start NewRisingSun wrote--] My point was that I accuse MAME of displaying a few games improperly, that is, different from what an arcade PCB would output, and the adjustments would correct that. It's not about applying modifications to make a game look different from "how it really is". [/Q --end NewRisingSun wrote--]
ok i did misunderstood you, but i can confirm MAME is correct with Contra as i have that PCB and monitor adjustment is a must... same thing with the sequel Super Contra (Super C).
I don't have Karnov but i have other Data East arcade games of that era (like Cobra-Command) and they have the same bright graphics.
I can not confirm Gradius brightness but i can see the gamma has been changed several times, so the mamedevs are knowing about it and i doubt it is incorrect with the newest MAME.
In MAME 0.105 they fixed: "Removed artificial gamma correction in nemesis driver." And in MAME 0.138 they fixed: "video/nemesis.c: Removed palette gamma hack"
NewRisingSun (1009) on 1/25/2014 11:20 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
Compare Karnov in MAME with http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCOYvmAFqHo and tell me again that MAME is correct. I am not doubting that "Cobra Command" looks correct in MAME, but Karnov is WAY off, too much to pass as a mere "monitor adjustment" issue.
Contra is a weird special case, as there's at least one PCB video that shows the stones brown while keeping the bridge gray: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yopInlfN7Zc
I wonder if that's a bootleg or a revision of some sort.
As for Gradius, MAMEdev did change it several times, but for the worse. Taking MAME's output and changing RGB values by 128 makes it look perfectly identical to Gradius Deluxe Pack. The fact that it is 128 and not some arbitrary value indicates an incorrect interpretation of palette register values in the emulator. Please actually try Gradius/Nemesis in MAME before doubting that it is displayed incorrectly. This issue affects ALL games (including TwinBee, Konami GT, Galactic Warriors) using "nemesis_palette_word_w" in video/nemesis.c and NO games using "salamander_palette_word_w" in video/nemesis.c such as Salamander, which looks perfect.
Игги Друге (46151) on 1/26/2014 4:35 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Stefan Lindberg wrote--] [Q2 --start NewRisingSun wrote--] My point was that I accuse MAME of displaying a few games improperly, that is, different from what an arcade PCB would output, and the adjustments would correct that. It's not about applying modifications to make a game look different from "how it really is". [/Q2 --end NewRisingSun wrote--]
ok i did misunderstood you, but i can confirm MAME is correct with Contra as i have that PCB and monitor adjustment is a must... same thing with the sequel Super Contra (Super C).[/Q --end Stefan Lindberg wrote--]
But then you adjust the monitor, since it's your game and your job as an arcade operator is to make the games work. It's not cheating, it's not a deviation from how the game is "supposed to" work. It's not as though Konami spent much thought on colour calibration.
Игги Друге (46151) on 1/24/2014 10:52 PM · Permalink · Report
There are no perfect emulators, certainly not when it comes to colour reproduction.