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The Columbine Diaries

Terrence Bosky (5458) on Jul 07, 2006


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GamePolitics is among the many sites reporting on the release of the "Columbine Diaries." These notes, written by school shooters Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, contain references to first person shooters Doom and Duke Nukem 3D and include lines like, "It'll be like the LA riots, the Oklahoma bombing, WWII, Vietnam, Duke and Doom all mixed together." With major media outlets re-reporting this connection are we set for more anti-video game vituperation? CNN links to the released pages here.

Re: The Columbine Diaries

Riamus (8521) on Jul 07, 2006


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You know... it doesn't take those games to make people do these things. The person is going to do it with or without the games. Yes, it *may* give them ideas, but even without the ideas, they would still commit the crime.

Re: The Columbine Diaries

Terrence Bosky (5458) on Jul 08, 2006


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Having skimmed the almost 1000 pages released, I find the numerous references to Nazism more compelling than a few "Doom rules" comments. I wonder if the thought of American teens identifying with Hitler's ideologiy is just too big for the media and it's easier to blame video games.

Re: The Columbine Diaries

PCGamer77 (3225) on Jul 10, 2006


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Terrence Bosky Wrote:
Having skimmed the almost 1000 pages released, I find the numerous references to Nazism more compelling than a few "Doom rules" comments. I wonder if the thought of American teens identifying with Hitler's ideologiy is just too big for the media and it's easier to blame video games.



Could be. At least the murderers were consistent, and didn't claim to be fans of Wolfenstein 3D...

Re: The Columbine Diaries

Unicorn Lynx (181419) on Jul 08, 2006


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What is certain is that games like "Doom" do not teach you anything positive. They might or might not inspire somebody to commit violent acts, but it certainly won't make you a better person.

This does not mean that games are necessarily harmful. But I'd safely say the world of gaming would have been a better place without "Doom" and alike.

Re: The Columbine Diaries

Slug Camargo (589) on Jul 08, 2006


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Unicorn Lynx Wrote:
What is certain is that games like "Doom" do not teach you anything positive. They might or might not inspire somebody to commit violent acts, but it certainly won't make you a better person.

This does not mean that games are necessarily harmful. But I'd safely say the world of gaming would have been a better place without "Doom" and alike.

Didn't we discuss this already? A game like Doom certainly doesn't teach you anything, but neither does, say, watching Saturday Night Live, or reading a play by Ionesco. It's just something you do because it's funny.

Re: The Columbine Diaries

Hervé Piton (10576) on Jul 08, 2006


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Unicorn Lynx Wrote:
What is certain is that games like "Doom" do not teach you anything positive.



Those kind of games might help you getting quicker reactions and thinking and even learning some basic English if it's not your mother tongue. Heck, they might even make you consider creating your own maps/mods. I think you always learn a little something...

Re: The Columbine Diaries

Unicorn Lynx (181419) on Jul 08, 2006


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I wonder what kind of English can I learn from "Doom"... Watching a boxing match would be a better English lesson.

Re: The Columbine Diaries

Terrence Bosky (5458) on Jul 08, 2006


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"Excuse me, n00b, I would like to pwn a BFG. Where might I procure one?"

Re: The Columbine Diaries

Indra was here (20848) on Jul 08, 2006


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Hervé Piton Wrote:
Unicorn Lynx Wrote:
What is certain is that games like "Doom" do not teach you anything positive.



Those kind of games might help you getting quicker reactions and thinking and even learning some basic English if it's not your mother tongue. Heck, they might even make you consider creating your own maps/mods. I think you always learn a little something...



Though I do intellectuall loathe Doom. It did give me a lot of interesting ideas regarding the optional uses of a chainsaw.

Unforutunately, most of those ideas are either illegal or immoral. Muahaha. Certainly does teach you something though....

Re: The Columbine Diaries

Terrence Bosky (5458) on Jul 08, 2006


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Unicorn Lynx Wrote:
But I'd safely say the world of gaming would have been a better place without "Doom" and alike.



Huh, a world without Doom. How would that have played out?

Re: The Columbine Diaries

n][rvana (1824) on Jul 09, 2006


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Unicorn Lynx Wrote:
What is certain is that games like "Doom" do not teach you anything positive. They might or might not inspire somebody to commit violent acts, but it certainly won't make you a better person.

This does not mean that games are necessarily harmful. But I'd safely say the world of gaming would have been a better place without "Doom" and alike.



Never seen such an amount of nonsense in 4 lines of text before. Where do I begin? Let's see...

games like "Doom" do not teach you anything positive

At least for me, it developed my orientation skills. I remember that it was in the Doom 2 level "The City" where I spent days with that single level trying to draw a mental map of all the city. However, all Doom 1 and 2 required you to remember where were the closed doors that would open when you find its matching color key. Thanks to Doom, when I park my car on a place I don't know, I always remember where I left it... I imagine myself again being on that level of the city... and it's funny but... when I get to new places, I imagine myself being the marine and look for the shortest route for the exit (you know, I have to run in case I open a door and a Baron Of Hell comes from it!).

As a sidenote, Doom has taught me too that it's OK to hate and kill demons since I am an evil-doer nameless US marine. Isn't that positive????

it certainly won't make you a better person

If the ability to always remember where I parked my car isn't enough to have made of me a better person, then I guess that promoting sharing among users has certainly made of us better persons. I've met many new ppl thanks to map sharing, so I think that anything that helps you to socialize makes you a better person.

This does not mean that games are necessarily harmful

I read and read this line and can't get enough of it. I mean, let's look deeper into this sentence! Does exist a SINGLE game that is harmful in any way??? Players are the ones that in some case harm themselves, games don't kill ppl. You are an irresponsible coward if you can't accept the responsability of what you've done, after all... we are free to do what we choose to do, so if you do anything, the only want to blame is yourself. Of course, ppl like to have scapegoats like gods (shouldn't be they called "scapegods" instead?) so they can "ease their conciences" a little bit and lessen the weight of the guilt all in yourself.

the world of gaming would have been a better place without "Doom" and alike

Now... i am speechless... there's so much I could write about this to fill a book! How can a so-called gamer nullify the enormous importance that this game had over the entire industry? I may not like SMB or DK, but you don't see me saying that "the world would be a better place without them" just because I know that the games industry wouldn't be what it is today if it wasn't for those games. However, if the state of the industry nowadays is good or bad, that's another point... but the importance that the Doom games had is too big to neglect. Your claim is as stupid as saying that "the world would b a better place without ppl like Enrico Fermi" just because he harnessed the power of the atom, forgetting that thanks to him we have now lasers, nuclear plants, hydroelectrics, etc.

I just hope this tread doesn't become an extension of the other... you know which one!

(Edited by n][rvana (1824), Jul 09, 2006)

Re: The Columbine Diaries

Matt Neuteboom (989) on Jul 10, 2006


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I just hope this tread doesn't become an extension of the other... you know which one!

Yea, I defiitely don't want to see another topic turn into that! I mean, heaven't we talked about tentacle porn enough?

Re: The Columbine Diaries

Unicorn Lynx (181419) on Jul 10, 2006


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Now please read your post again and see how aggressive it is. How intolerant it is to another person's simple opinion about a game. How you immediately used words like "nonsense" and "stupid", without even trying to understand my point of view.

I guess your reply speaks for itself. It is a very good confirmation to what I said.

Re: The Columbine Diaries

Mobygamesisreanimated (11174) on Jul 10, 2006


Goddamn you Doom! How many more lives will you destroy before it is enough?!

Re: The Columbine Diaries

n][rvana (1824) on Jul 11, 2006


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Unicorn Lynx Wrote:
(...)another person's simple opinion about a game. How you immediately used words like "nonsense" and "stupid", without even trying to understand my point of view.

Excuse me, sir but your point of view is open to debate from the moment you say something that is simply untrue, or that leads to a line of thinking that has actually proven wrong, like when you said that "(...) They might or might not inspire somebody to commit violent acts" when investigations have been made and cases have been fought in court and the common result is always the same: media can't inspire someone to commit violent acts. And there are too many sources (mags, studies) that know for a fact how influential and important Doom was to the videogame industry because of the many factors it pushed on its day. Can't understand then how you say that the "world of gaming would have been a better place without "Doom" and alike" when it is a fact that thanks to doom the industry is what it is now. (modding, fps advances, network/internet/modem gaming, deathmatching, etc).

Unicorn Lynx Wrote:
(...) But I'd safely say the world of gaming would have been a better place without "Doom" and alike.

Sorry man, but for all the reasons I exposed and those that I didn't remember, you really have to be kidding me here.

Re: The Columbine Diaries

Unicorn Lynx (181419) on Jul 11, 2006


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n][rvana Wrote:
[rvana wrote--]Can't understand then how you say that the "world of gaming would have been a better place without "Doom" and alike" when it is a fact that thanks to doom the industry is what it is now. (modding, fps advances, network/internet/modem gaming, deathmatching, etc).

[rvana wrote--] I didn't say Doom wasn't influential. Unfortunately, it was. Has it occurred to you that someone might dislike those things you mentioned? FPS advances, deathmatching, and such? Well, I don't like Doom, and I don't like what Doom did to the game industry. That's a subjective opinion, and there is nothing true or untrue about it.

And above all, I don't like the cult status of this damn game. How it is worshiped everywhere. How it is being chosen as a representative (!) of the entire gaming. How it became the symbol of videogaming, and the primary reason for why videogaming is regarded upon as a low kind of entertainment. How it is impossible to say anything bad about this game without being attacked by its fans.

Re: The Columbine Diaries

n][rvana (1824) on Jul 11, 2006


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Unicorn Lynx Wrote:
I don't like what Doom did to the game industry.



Unicorn Lynx Wrote:
And above all, I don't like the cult status of this damn game. How it is worshiped everywhere. How it is being chosen as a representative (!) of the entire gaming. How it became the symbol of videogaming, and the primary reason for why videogaming is regarded upon as a low kind of entertainment. How it is impossible to say anything bad about this game without being attacked by its fans.



I would like to know what Doom did to the industry that you don't like. Perhaps that way I could understand some more your POV. You say you don't like all those things but you don't say which ones, or why. What is wrong with Doom that a lot of ppl worship it and you hate it?

Independently of my POV, I'll tell you why it's "impossible to say anything bad about this game without being attacked by its fans"... it happens that Doom has a nearly perfect balance on its gameplay, along with its graphics and sound, things that gave it high scores and made it a favourite. So you don't like it, that's OK, but there are thousands of others who do, that's why I guess you'll be confronted every time you say those things. It's like, for example, jumping to a music BBS and trying to trash albums like Abbey Road, The White Album or Nevermind. Sooner or later someone will jump off at you. You see, you may not like the music, that's OK, but another thing is saying that those albums did bad things to the music industry. That's when music connoiseurs will jump at you.

I mind, that's why we have critics. Doom was not only famous, it was lauded by critics. You may say that Deer Hunter was even more famous, but it was trashed by critics, proof that famous doesn't equal importance.

So yeah, I understand you don't like Doom, but you still haven't given a reason why. And according to your post, if you don't like the cult status of this "damn" game, perhaps you could try also to understand why it has that cult status, in the first place.

Doom was chosen a representative for gaming in general IMHO b/c its boom occured at the same time as the massification of the Internet, and I may even say that Doom helped to make the Internet popular, thanks to both itself, deathmatching and level creating. Remember that Dec 13, 1993 more than 900,000 ppl logged in to the ftp server to download the shareware version. So that may be the reason why it became so (in)famous, and because of that, it became also the scapegoat for old and ignorant politicians.

Unicorn Lynx Wrote:
How it became the symbol of videogaming, and the primary reason for why videogaming is regarded upon as a low kind of entertainment.



I don't agree with this, at least it is not the primary reason from my POV. It shared placed with those classic arcade gaming like Atari's 80's games like centipede, pac-man, asteroids, NES's famous games devoid of any plot like Mario, Donkey Kong and the like, and others like Mortal Kombat and Street Fighter are also the primary reason for why videogaming is regarded as "low kind of entertainment". Sad but true. Why you point your finger to Doom as the main guilty? All of these games are the reason why videogaming is regarded upon as a low kind of entertainment, don't you think?

Re: The Columbine Diaries

Terrence Bosky (5458) on Jul 11, 2006


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Can't you guys settle this with a dance fight?

Re: The Columbine Diaries

Unicorn Lynx (181419) on Jul 12, 2006


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I don't like the fact that such a simplistic, stupid game, basically a 3D version of brainless arcade shooters, with some gore and silly monsters thrown in, with awfully repetitive and mind-killing gameplay, became an object of cult following and inspired countless other games (Quake and alike) of the same kind. I hope that was clear enough.

About Doom having perfect balance: that's a subjective opinion. For you it is "nearly perfect balance", for me it's infinitely boring, brain-numbing affair. Even if I'm totally alone in the whole world with this opinion, it's still a proof for the subjectivity of your reasoning.

Monkey Island is also a very popular game, admired by fans and critics alike. Have you ever heard of a Monkey Island fan insulting someone who doesn't like this game? Even if something like this happens, it's an exception. As for Doom fans, they become aggressive the moment they hear something bad about their darling monster-shooting baby.

Heck, I think I trashed GTA3 even more than Doom in reviews and discussions, yet no fan of this game has ever attacked me for this, even though many people politely said they disagreed.

About critical acclaim: you can't be serious, can you? Since when do critics determine the value of art?! I am my own critic, thank you very much. I am old enough to decide myself what is good and what is bad. And everyone with a brain in his head should also form his own opinion, without relying on critics.

Mario, Donkey Kong and other games you mention didn't become an object of worship, and if they did, their worshipers weren't aggressive. Not to mention that in my opinion those games are more fun than Doom.

Re: The Columbine Diaries

Shoddyan (14412) on Jul 12, 2006


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Unicorn Lynx Wrote:
Monkey Island is also a very popular game, admired by fans and critics alike. Have you ever heard of a Monkey Island fan insulting someone who doesn't like this game?



*clang*
*clash*
*thwang*
Soon you'll be wearing my sword like a shish kebab!
*clang*
*clash*
*thwang*
First you better stop waiving it like a feather-duster.

Re: The Columbine Diaries

n][rvana (1824) on Jul 12, 2006


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I don't like the fact that such a simplistic, stupid game, basically a 3D version of brainless arcade shooters, with some gore and silly monsters thrown in, with awfully repetitive and mind-killing gameplay, became an object of cult following and inspired countless other games (Quake and alike) of the same kind. I hope that was clear enough.

Well, as the japanese say... sometimes less is more. So that means that you don't like brainless arcade shooters neither?



About Doom having perfect balance: that's a subjective opinion.

Of course it is. So this proves... what? That tastes are subjective? Everyone knows that. However, there are standards for everything, even for beauty. That's why we have critics. As subjective as beauty may be, a strong percentage of ppl will agree that Salma Hayek or Eva Langoria are one of the most beautiful women in the world. Perhaps some persons just don't like them, but I wouldn't imagine somebody calling her "downright ugly". Now, if we apply this example to Doom, it would seem to me that you would be the only one on the face of the Earth still calling this girls "downright ugly". There is a big difference between "thinking original ideas / not following the crowd" and "stubborness".

Now I won't be telling you to like it, I just say that if you play it with an open mind perhaps you could find one or two redeeming qualities on it, and *understand* why it won the hearts of so many ppl across the world, but from the *other* thread we noticed that you are not a person with a very open mind.



As for Doom fans, they become aggressive the moment they hear something bad about their darling monster-shooting baby.

Heck, I think I trashed GTA3 even more than Doom in reviews and discussions, yet no fan of this game has ever attacked me for this (...)


So now you want to talk about stereotypes? Excuse me if I hurt your feelings, I promise to be a good boy from now on. ;-)



About critical acclaim: you can't be serious, can you? Since when do critics determine the value of art?! I am my own critic, thank you very much. I am old enough to decide myself what is good and what is bad. And everyone with a brain in his head should also form his own opinion, without relying on critics.

So then you think that critics and ppl who review games for a living have worthless jobs? You gotta b kidding me... never in your life read and learned from a review then? If so, then why do you write reviews for games at this site? That's a contradiction..

Critics have *always* determined the value of art since the first art schools appeared! That's why you pay so much for a Picasso painting and so little for a Bob Ross one, after comparing both artists work against a *set of standards*. That's why we have critics, to apply this rules against works of art.

It's good to be our own critics, but there are times when we should hear other ppl's opinions, if not, we would be... doomed (no pun intended). Why? Because perhaps we are not doing things as good as we think and external opinions give us perspective. Man, you really are a very stubborn person. I am not saying this as an offense, it's just that... well, something must be wrong when everybody tells you that you're wrong and you stubbornly apply the "don't hear, don't see" policy.

In my case, Franz Ferdinand was lauded by critics, but I really didn't like that much their two productions. I have my own opinion? Yes. But I don't bash those records, because they must have certain qualities that perhaps I cannot appreciate. But the fact that I can't appreciate them doesn't turn me into a Franz Ferdinand bashing machine, you know?



Mario, Donkey Kong and other games you mention didn't become an object of worship, and if they did, their worshipers weren't aggressive.

Of course, because they are all children! ;-)

Re: The Columbine Diaries

Unicorn Lynx (181419) on Jul 12, 2006


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Yes, I am a stubborn person.

If 99.999% of the world's population likes Doom, I still reserve the right to detest it.

And no, critics don't work for nothing, but they often follow criteria which are diferent from mine. I judge things according to my own values. That doesn't mean that I don't understand values of others. I understand, but I don't necessarily agree.

I do dislike brainless arcade shooters, but perhaps less than Doom, because no arcade shooter has ever had such an influence on game industry and created such a cult following.

Re: The Columbine Diaries

Marko Poutiainen (1160) on Jul 14, 2006


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Excuse for throwing in my tuppence but I don't understand Doom either. I disliked it when it came out and it almost single-handedly stopped me playing FPS's until Half-Life came out (unless you count System Shock as an FPS) because I thought all FPS's were like Doom. And in retrospect I think I was quite right. I did try Quake and found it even worse. They were simply boring and stupid.

Re: The Columbine Diaries

Unicorn Lynx (181419) on Jul 15, 2006


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I don't believe it, I actually get some support on Doom topic! LOL!

Thanks :-))

Re: The Columbine Diaries

Slug Camargo (589) on Jul 11, 2006


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n][rvana Wrote:
Never seen such an amount of nonsense in 4 lines of text before. Where do I begin? Let's see...

Here's something that bugs me: Why would someone go through the hard work of hammering down a 500+ page essay for a post, and then shorthand the word "people" as "ppl"? I mean, does cutting out three letters every, say, 75 words save SO MUCH WORK it's worth coming out looking like some kind of overinflated 13-year-old girl's SMS?





Yeah, this thread was keeping on-topic for far too many posts already, I had to do something.

(Edited by Slug Camargo (589), Jul 11, 2006)

Re: The Columbine Diaries

n][rvana (1824) on Jul 12, 2006


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;-) guess that I've just grown accustomed to...

Slug Camargo Wrote:
(...)looking like some kind of overinflated 13-year-old girl's SMS?



I dunno that 13 y/o gals did that... they must've learned it from me then! :-D

Re: The Columbine Diaries

Scott Monster (1009) on Jul 14, 2006


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Actually,there was a recent study published on CNN stating that youth crimes are DOWN in part due to computer games. I don't know if its true, but it is plausible.

And when I have a bad day at work, Max Payne is my medicine.

Re: The Columbine Diaries

Indra was here (20848) on Jul 15, 2006


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Someone forgot to tell someone that Doom is just a game.

Re: The Columbine Diaries

Shoddyan (14412) on Jul 15, 2006


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And a bad sci-fi zombie movie.

Re: The Columbine Diaries

Slug Camargo (589) on Jul 15, 2006


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Shoddyan Wrote:
And a bad sci-fi zombie movie.

Speaking of which, it's time to recommend yet another PWoT article: The Ten Best Sci-Fi Films That Never Existed, among which we find...

A Doom that isn't a huge turd
Look, I don't expect a Doom movie to be freaking Citizen Kane. It's okay for the dialogue to be simple and stupid and I don't care if you cast a wrestler as the lead character. This is going to be a "B" movie.

But a "B" movie doesn't have to be shitty. You hear that, Hollywood? You can make an unapologetic action movie and it can still be good. You see, in the world of video games, Doom isn't a "B" title. It's top of the line, the games always made by top developers with top budgets. Don't give me a knockoff with a cut-rate action director (any Andrzej Bartkowiak fans out there?) with a creature effects budget less than that of the Doom 3 video game.

No, Doom needs a Paul Verhoeven. He's the guy who took a screenplay called Robocop, a concept so cheesy it could easily have played like Inspector Gadget and turned in a relentlessly brutal, bloody film that originally earned an "X" Rating from the MPAA.



For anyone who's around age 30 and felt his geeky childhood dreams horribly violated by crap such as Alien 3, the Star Wars prequels, the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy adaptation, or the fact noone ever made a movie out of Starcraft, it's simply mandatory to click here right away.

Re: The Columbine Diaries

Unicorn Lynx (181419) on Jul 16, 2006


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Slug Camargo Wrote:
For anyone who's around age 30 and felt his geeky childhood dreams horribly violated by crap such the Star Wars prequels...

Hey, I like Star Wars prequels. Really.

Re: The Columbine Diaries

Slug Camargo (589) on Jul 16, 2006


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Unicorn Lynx Wrote:
Slug Camargo Wrote:
For anyone who's around age 30 and felt his geeky childhood dreams horribly violated by crap such the Star Wars prequels...

Hey, I like Star Wars prequels. Really.

That's probably because you saw the 6 movies in one sitting and therefore you have a harder time setting them apart from one another, it's the only half-plausible explanation I can find.

Most of us who spent about 70% of our lives waiting for them, felt like someone dropped a bucket of icy water on our heads right there on the movie theater seats.



In fact, it was more like icy rancid piss.

Re: The Columbine Diaries

Unicorn Lynx (181419) on Jul 16, 2006


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You are right about me watching all the movies at the same time; but that's precisely what helps me judge them more objectively than most people.

Most of the people of my age watched the first three Star Wars movies when they appeared; at that time those people were kids.

Now, when the prequels appeared, those people have already become adults. The childish atmosphere and the cheasiness of Star Wars couldn't satisfy them any more. They required something more serious. That's why they disliked the prequels.

Yet the first three Star Wars movies always remained somewhat sacred for them, because they were childhood memories. So the same people who trashed the prequels couldn't realize that in fact they were on par with their beloved old movies. Only their own perspective changed.

As someone who watched all the movies at once, I can clearly see that the prequels and the original movies are more or less on the same level.

Re: The Columbine Diaries

Marko Poutiainen (1160) on Jul 16, 2006


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Episodes IV and V are quite enjoyable but it went downhill in VI with those annoying fuzzy animals. Argh!

Ep1 was carp (switch two letters). That annoying "funny relief". Who did they think they are kidding, Jar-Jar was in the movie just to boost toy sales. And Anakin. AAAAARGH! Saves the planet alone? AAAAAAAAAAAARGH!!! It was a kids' movie, not meant for anyone over 15. The original Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back actually could be watched by adults.

Re: The Columbine Diaries

Unicorn Lynx (181419) on Jul 17, 2006


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I don't know, Ep. I was okay, if nothing outstanding. The one I dislike most is actually the first, Ep. IV. It's so unbelievably childish, and the whole second half of the movie is a stupid action sequence! I couldn't believe it when I first watched it. But then Ep. V was much, much better. Ep. VI was also very good, despite the silly animals. Ep. I and II were so-so, but III was significantly better. The point is, the difference in quality is not that big. They are all more or less the same - silly and fun. And so Buddhist in nature that I almost suspect George Lucas copied the basic stories from some obscure Tibetan legends ;-)

Re: The Columbine Diaries

Slug Camargo (589) on Jul 17, 2006


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Unicorn Lynx Wrote:
You are right about me watching all the movies at the same time; but that's precisely what helps me judge them more objectively than most people. Most of the people of my age watched the first three Star Wars movies when they appeared; at that time those people were kids. Now, when the prequels appeared, those people have already become adults. The childish atmosphere and the cheasiness of Star Wars couldn't satisfy them any more. They required something more serious. That's why they disliked the prequels.
[...]
As someone who watched all the movies at once, I can clearly see that the prequels and the original movies are more or less on the same level.

That's a valid point, undoubtedly, and it's actually one I questioned myself often, but still, I can't see the prequels on the same level as the old movies. It is true that I ask for more "serious" movies now, but I still enjoy "silly", out-and-out action/adventure movies if they are good. For example, I went to see the first The Mummy to the theater, and I enjoyed it like a degenerate maniac, and I was looking forward to the second one like an overexcited 10-year-old.

Regarding the Star Wars prequels, however, I did try to be as open minded as I could, but I can't help but finding the creature design awfully uninspired, the CGI unnecessarily overused, the characters easily forgettable (If not plainly annoying, i.e: Jar-Jar Binks) and the storytelling bland and soulless.

And I stand firm by that last bit especially now, as I just watched the second Pirates of the Caribbean movie last night and I got the feeling that I hadn't experienced such a plain and yet smartly crafted, full of events, neatly-paced, starred by tremendously charismatic characters, and, above all, simply, purely entertaining movie since I watched Return of the Jedi when it first came down here, around 1984. And I don't think Pirates is much more "serious" than Star Wars.

(Edited by Slug Camargo (589), Jul 17, 2006)

Re: The Columbine Diaries

chirinea (47153) on Jul 17, 2006


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Slug Camargo Wrote:
Regarding the Star Wars prequels, however, I did try to be as open minded as I could, but I can't help but finding the creature design awfully uninspired, the CGI unnecessarily overused, the characters easily forgettable (If not plainly annoying, i.e: Jar-Jar Binks) and the storytelling bland and soulless.



Amen!

Re: The Columbine Diaries

Marko Poutiainen (1160) on Jul 16, 2006


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Rather interesting article, but... when did scifi become a synonym for action with futuristic weapons?

I grew up reading Asimov, Lem, the Strugatski brothers, Heinlein and other classic scifi writers and that is what I consider scifi. Ideas. Visions. Sense of wonder. They actually used to make decent scifi movies once, movies like 2001 and Stalker. Not many, but they could be made. Bladerunner had an idea and it is one of my all-time favourite movies, but then again, the original idea was from someone who actually wrote scifi. It actually dealt ideas such as what is humanity. Nowadays, scifi movies deal with ideas such as what colour an aliens blood is and what are the most gruesome ways of killing someone. Spot the difference.

Oh, Starship Troopers isn't a bad movie, it just concentrates too much on the action and too little on the rest.

And I didn't think HHGttG was *that* bad. You just have to forget the books when you watch it. Having said that, the BBC TV series was much better, and it was made with a shoestring budget.

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Indra was here (20848) on Jul 17, 2006


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The prequels of Starwars was probably "inferior" to the original three, in addition to the good childhood memories, but also to another factor. Back then, Starwas Episode 4,5,6 were the cutting edge in technology and fantasy, they technically didn't have much competition. Starwars 1,2,3 had to compete with Matrix and all those other movies with egad! animations. Most of the crowd was disappointed due to the "been there, done that" attitude. Story wasn't much of a thing in starwars anyway.

Hey, Doom the movie was very good actually (untill they HAD to make that 1st person perspective scene). Starship troopers was one of my favorite "light-watching" action movies. The game is actually better Starship Troopers: Terran Ascendancy.

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Slug Camargo (589) on Jul 18, 2006


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Indra was here Wrote:
Most of the crowd was disappointed due to the "been there, done that" attitude. Story wasn't much of a thing in starwars anyway.

The stories weren't that big a thing, agreed, but still, you can take a plain story and tell with with class and have some memorable characters in it. In Eps. 4, 5 and 6 you had lots of cool characters, and there was this tremendous chemistry between them all. It's really hard to pick just one favourite Star Wars character. On the other hand, not one of the characters in the prequels was half as charming as even Chewbacca's left toe.

Indra was here Wrote:
Starship troopers was one of my favorite "light-watching" action movies. The game is actually better Starship Troopers: Terran Ascendancy.

I'm with you there, that's one of my top-5 favourite "nonsense-action" movies ever, up there with Aliens and all the great ones.

And now I'm really intrigued about the game...

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Unicorn Lynx (181419) on Jul 18, 2006


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Slug Camargo Wrote:
On the other hand, not one of the characters in the prequels was half as charming as even Chewbacca's left toe.

I don't know, I would trade all those early Star Wars characters for Anakin. He is much more interesting than those positive heroes. Okay, in Ep. II he was very annoying, but for me it was actually more interesting to see how he slowly turns evil (and why) than to watch those goody-goody guys whack the evil, evil dudes in the original movies.

Anyway, until the "I'm your father" thing kicks in, the original trilogy is really not worth watching, IMHO. So in fact Anakin is the only character that gives some depth to those movies.

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Slug Camargo (589) on Jul 18, 2006


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Unicorn Lynx Wrote:
I would trade all those early Star Wars characters for Anakin. He is much more interesting than those positive heroes. Okay, in Ep. II he was very annoying, but for me it was actually more interesting to see how he slowly turns evil (and why)
[...]
So in fact Anakin is the only character that gives some depth to those movies.

I haven't watched Episode 3, so I might still agree with you on this, but I do know I hated him in Episode 2 and I especially loathed his guts in Episode I.

As for your closing comment, I don't think anyone watches Star Wars looking for any sort of depth ó__Ò
They're just very very expensive matinee movies.

(Edited by Slug Camargo (589), Jul 18, 2006)

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chirinea (47153) on Jul 18, 2006


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Unicorn Lynx Wrote:
Okay, in Ep. II he was very annoying, but for me it was actually more interesting to see how he slowly turns evil (and why) than to watch those goody-goody guys whack the evil, evil dudes in the original movies.



For me it wasn't THAT slow. Actually, it was a bit sudden for me. And even if the reason was good (to save the one he loved), I just couldn't stand that Darth-Vader-wannabe guy. He was still annoying.

Regardless, I like Episode III more than the previous two episodes, but WAY less than IV, V and VI.

Empire Strikes Back still's the best, imho.

(Edited by chirinea (47153), Jul 18, 2006)

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Unicorn Lynx (181419) on Jul 18, 2006


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chirinea Wrote:
Empire Strikes Back still's the best, imho.

I agree with you on this one, it's also my favorite. Then comes Ep. VI, III, I, II, and finally IV. It was just so incredibly silly... and I hated that 30-minutes space battle so much. It took me about 4 years to convince myself to watch the other movies after I watched this one, just because a friend of mine promised me Ep. V is much better.

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Scaryfun (17975) on Jul 17, 2006


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Trying to lose the British sensibility in the Hitchhiker film and tacking on the love interest were typical Hollywood mistakes in trying to appeal to the lowest common audience... I agree the tv adaptation was MUCH better.

The Star Wars prequels suffered from many faults: - doing a "prequel" is always a mistake, better to make new adventures... doing an origins story requires great writing - something entirely lacking in this. As a viewer, watching 3 movies with characters that I already know how they'll turn out in the future is anti-climactic and provides no suspense. - using mostly artificial sets later added in by computer results in wooden performances by actors having no environment to be able to draw mood from. - Jar Jar was terribly annoying and adding R2D2 flying abilities seemed a cop-out to liven up films at the expense of logic. That damn annoying thin flimsy robot army made it seem as if they never were a threat...i prefer storm troopers. - those oh so boring political senate/jedi council scenes were all deadly dull.

(Edited by Scaryfun (17975), Jul 17, 2006)

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Slug Camargo (589) on Jul 18, 2006


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Scaryfun Wrote:
Trying to lose the British sensibility in the Hitchhiker film and tacking on the love interest were typical Hollywood mistakes in trying to appeal to the lowest common audience... I agree the tv adaptation was MUCH better.

And you just have to respect such a statement when it comes from a guy with a V for Vendetta avatar, so there.

Long live Alan Moore.

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Marko Poutiainen (1160) on Jul 20, 2006


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The thing about the HHGttG movie is that it isn't *that* bad, it's not very good either. Considerig it's cult status people were expecting more. Think of LOTR: even though Jackson had three long movies to spend telling the story almost meticulously to the point, some still complained it wasn't quite like the book. The poor barstewards of HHGttG, however, had to try to shoehorn the story into an hour-and-a-half movie. I actually think it's good they didn't try an exact replica but went with their own stuff mostly. This helped me to separate the two. The movie is NOT an adaptation of Adams' work. What I was mostly annoyed about the movie was how they actually managed to drop all the funny stuff off the conversations they did take from the books. What was that all about? Too British for the US audience? It was weird when you were expecting the punchline that never came in several scenes.

Why can't they give Terry Gillian a check for one hundred million and orders to make a decent HHGttG movie? After all, they gave Jackson gazillions to make that bore that was King Kong. I mean, what could be a better CV than one including Twelve Monkeys, Brazil, Holy Grail and Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas?

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Slug Camargo (589) on Jul 20, 2006


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Marko Poutiainen Wrote:
I mean, what could be a better CV than one including Twelve Monkeys, Brazil, Holy Grail and Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas?

Big Amen to that.

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Indra was here (20848) on Jul 21, 2006


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You want a masterpiece? Sin City. Bite me if you don't like it.

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Slug Camargo (589) on Jul 21, 2006


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Indra was here Wrote:
You want a masterpiece? Sin City. Bite me if you don't like it.

I don't think it qualifies as a masterpiece. For one thing, they stripped out a lot of quite good dialogues from the original comics.

And also, there are a bunch of scenes that are supposed to take place in open areas, and yet it's painfully obvious they're being shot in a rather small studio.

At times it looks like it was shot with a TV series budget :P

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n][rvana (1824) on Jul 22, 2006


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Actually I think that's part of the movie's charm, as the comic itself is a tribute to film noir and old thriller novels... even the comic's dark sense of humor is still there, but expanded greatly thanks because the movie had no space constraints. Maybe there's not the punch-lines or one-liners present on the comic, but it makes up for that by making it a very interesting film to watch, and that it follows the story across the main locales mentioned in the comic. The whore neighbourhood could not been better depicted, in my opinion. It was just as I imagined it would be if they ever got a movie made from the source material.

Gotta love too the film special effects (yellow colored character in a black and white movie to punctuate his evilness).

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Matt Neuteboom (989) on Jul 26, 2006


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For HHGTTG, I thought it was right in-line with the books up until about half-way. then it went off into storylines that weren't in the book. I mean, who the Hell thought of Humma Kavoola? That's really the most important thing when making any conversion: sticking to the source material. After the halfway mark, H2G2 lost the charm of the books.