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This is my opinion, if you care to read it

Nélio (2075) on Oct 12, 2013


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I've been a long time user of MobyGames and a somewhat intermittent contributor, as you can see from my rather low score.

In the course of these ~10 years, I've been primarily a MobyUser. I have a tremendous love for games and I'm professionally involved with them, so I've used this site for extensive personal and professional research.

During that research, I submitted corrections whenever I found incomplete or incorrect information. That was my main contribution: trying to keep information as accurate as possible.

Even though I absolutely love the site, I've always had my gripes with MobyGames. Its outdated look and the insanely slow approvals (particularly slow for corrections - some of them on queue for YEARS) were my main complaints.

I wasn't the only one complaining, as these and other issues were reported and discussed on the forum for as long as I can remember. It was frustrating as it seemed they would never be fixed, and that's actually why I have such a low score. I simply stopped making contributions when I had dozens of items pending approval for weeks, months, and sometimes years. But as a batch got approved, I ended up returning... just to leave again later for the same reason.

Then I learned about the GameFly purchase. Whoa, I thought, this could be great news! Maybe things will get fixed and the site will improve! There was a wishlist on the forum and even talks about a whole new interface. Nice, MobyGames will finally work properly and have the recognition it deserves, I thought.

And nothing happened. For months all we heard was that things were being done and we just had to wait. It was a bit frustrating but hopes were high.

A few weeks ago, while I was doing some of my retrogaming research, I visited MobyGames and... everything was different! That day I didn't have the time to properly explore the new site, and although I was a bit disappointed by its monochrome looks, I was happy that SOMETHING finally happened.

A couple of weeks ago I finally found some time to use the site and I was confused by the experience. The design lacked elegance and felt outdated and uninteresting. The interface changes made it difficult for me to find my way around. And the search results were strangely short. But hey, I thought, I was using the previous design for 10 years so it'll take time to get used to the new one. If this is what the community feels is best for MobyGames, I'll be having the same opinion in no time!

A couple of nights ago I had some items in my queue approved and I returned to the site again. I wanted to check my standing in the contributor rankings, but I couldn't find the link in my profile. Actually, my profile was missing a lot of information and clickable links in this new design. This looked strange, so I headed to the forums to ask for help.

And then I got depressed.

I was completely oblivious of this backlash against the new design. I read a number of threads and got really upset with all of this. I've never interacted much with you guys on the forum, but I've "known" you for years and it was heartbreaking to see all these long-time approvers and contributors claiming that the site was a disaster and MobyGames was dying. I just couldn't believe it and I even panicked a bit, as there's no other resource like this and I don't want it to be lost forever.

So, AND FINALLY TO THE POINT, what I want to say is that I agree with your opinions, but I strongly disagree with your actions in protest.

Yes, the site is a disaster and should have never gone live until it was AT LEAST as feature-complete and error-free as the previous version. New features and content could be slowly added, but the starting point should have been a fully functional and minimally appealing website - and we've got none of that.

But quitting the site, mocking it in the forum and on Facebook, and protesting so visually with your new avatars and usernames, is really a disservice to us all. I understand you're hugely disappointed and frustrated, but that won't help. It will just undermine MobyGames even more to the eyes of the public and its new owners.

In this unfortunate time, MobyGames has never needed our focus and support as badly as now. If we don't stand by it, no one else will and it will have been all in vain. MobyGames will surely be doomed if everyone walks away or stays just to bash it day and night.

Maybe it's a lot to ask, but I don't think anyone here wants MobyGames to die, so please get your act together and be professional about it - even if others weren't. Things will only get better if everyone cooperates towards the same goal.

Thanks for reading.

Re: This is my opinion, if you care to read it

Indra was here (20900) on Oct 12, 2013


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Nélio Wrote:
In this unfortunate time, MobyGames has never needed our focus and support as badly as now. If we don't stand by it, no one else will and it will have been all in vain. MobyGames will surely be doomed if everyone walks away or stays just to bash it day and night.

Been there, done that. Just Google the web and see any forum criticizing MG in the past. You'll usually find at least one of us going berserk there.

If you got frustrated with the contribution process, imagine us with several thousand points who have practically memorized every bug, every backdoor workaround, every glitch for the past several years. Us who use MG on a daily basis and refresh the MG page every 5 minutes. Us have been approvers, who have been admins, who play games solely for contributing to MG.

Only to find out: Oh, we got completely ignored again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. So OK, let's work on this in a civilized manner. Four months later, sold to Gamefly. And we found out oh, about two months later after the sale. By accident. At that point, most of us already dreaded the worst. The ones who didn't, were totally oblivious at the state MG was in, so such opinions are invalid anyway.

How many times of "and again" does one have to experience for it to finally start to get annoying? If you think this is solely based on a reaction to this one redesign, you're missing the whole point of the backlash, dude. Besides, this is too late in the game. Many of us have already left and moved on to another gaming project. In a professional world, that's exactly how things work. Free market society: give us a reason to stay or give us a reason to leave. Whose fault is it when the later occurs? Dunno about you, but actively contributing to this site for more than half a decade, is already above and beyond the call of community duty.

---

TLDR summary: Been there, done that. By all means, stick around. And when they screw you over again (which based on continuous precedents, they have and will), till the point where you finally get a hint. We'll be waiting for you at the Troll Pub. Later, mate.

Re: This is my opinion, if you care to read it

Cavalary (10850) on Oct 12, 2013


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Nélio Wrote:
It will just undermine MobyGames even more to the eyes of the public and its new owners.

The owners don't give a damn as it is. Undermining it to the public may help with that actually, if there will be fewer visits they'll see a hit on that ROI Corn Popper was mentioning.

Nélio Wrote:
In this unfortunate time, MobyGames has never needed our focus and support as badly as now. If we don't stand by it, no one else will and it will have been all in vain. MobyGames will surely be doomed if everyone walks away or stays just to bash it day and night.

Of course nobody else cares, that's just the point, so it already is doomed. It's not like we can actually do anything about it.

Nélio Wrote:
Things will only get better if everyone cooperates towards the same goal.

Well, yes, if the "everyone" will include the owners (and founders inasmuch as they have any say in it anymore, which is obviously not the case, not that they'd give a damn even if they would). Seeing as that's not going to happen, who'd we be cooperating with?

Re: This is my opinion, if you care to read it

Rola (8290) on Oct 12, 2013


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Nélio Wrote:
be professional about it

Professionals get paid. We're only hobbyists here.

Take a closer look at our protest. We don't scream "we hate MobyGames".

GameFly isn't MobyGames. Who says I need to be loyal to the new owners? Especially after their display of mismanagement towards the website (launching untested website, hiring wrong designer etc.) and total ignorance of the community which build it.

I could explain it to you better in private message (which still doesn't work).

Re: This is my opinion, if you care to read it

Nélio (2075) on Oct 12, 2013


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Rola Wrote:
Professionals get paid. We're only hobbyists here.

That's not a valid argument. You can be professional without getting paid. There are obvious examples, and I'm sure you know what I meant.

I know you're all deeply frustrated. I'm depressed and I didn't put nearly as much effort as all of you did into MobyGames. But it hurts my soul to see those who have contributed so much over the years turning against the site. I know it's not MobyGames you're protesting against, but ultimately it's the site that suffers.

I'm just really, really concerned and sad. And I wish there was more we could do turn things around. Just hoping that you don't give up.

Re: This is my opinion, if you care to read it

Giu's Brain (543) on Oct 12, 2013


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You're 'a bit' late to the party. Most of the people who have left the site will probably never approve, contribute or even comment on the forum again, regardless of anything anyone says or does.

MobyGames, as it once was, is dead.

Re: This is my opinion, if you care to read it

Karsa Orlong (144764) on Oct 12, 2013


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That's not true. All of them are here every day just put on hold their activities for a REASON. Just look for top 20 logs. As a newcomer I have decided to stay until the end of the year. If the site won't be fixed and old features won't be back I will leave with a clear conscience. That's all I can do.

Re: This is my opinion, if you care to read it

Indra was here (20900) on Oct 12, 2013


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Karsa Orlong Wrote:
That's not true. All of them are here every day just put on hold their activities for a REASON. Just look for top 20 logs. As a newcomer I have decided to stay until the end of the year. If the site won't be fixed and old features won't be back I will leave with a clear conscience. That's all I can do.

And we technically support you on this decision. Because you're the new guy and we don't really want to ruin it for you personally. Besides, as far as points go, anyone who has contributed like insane to this website can do whatever the hell they want. They've already proved their dedication to this website. You've done your duty.

(Edited by Indra was here (20900), Oct 12, 2013)

Re: This is my opinion, if you care to read it

Giu's Brain (543) on Oct 12, 2013


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"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

Re: This is my opinion, if you care to read it

Indra was here (20900) on Oct 12, 2013


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Giu's Brain Wrote:
"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

Fool me thrice, [enter anti-intelligence related remark here].

Re: This is my opinion, if you care to read it

Rola (8290) on Oct 12, 2013


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Nélio Wrote:
it hurts my soul

Wait, who starts to sound passionate here? That's not very professional.

Would you call GameFly's failure to properly upgrade the website "professional"?

Was selling MobyGames behind the backs of the community "professional"? Oh, wait, that's what corporations do all the time...

What if there's method in my madness? But for the same reason why people have to sign NDA, I shouldn't be babbling it out on the forum?

Re: This is my opinion, if you care to read it

Nélio (2075) on Oct 13, 2013


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Rola, calm down. I wasn't attacking anyone. As I said in my original post, "be professional about it - even if others weren't". I'm certainly not on GameFly's side here. Don't misunderstand me.

I'm the ever optimistic one, asking everyone to just get along. :(

Thank you all for your replies, I have a much clearer vision on the subject now. Where can I download the database? 0:-)

*sad*

Re: This is my opinion, if you care to read it

András Gregorik (65) on Oct 12, 2013


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Nélio, I'm sorry to say that you act like Captain Obvious here.
The key contributors in general have left the site weeks ago. It's old news.
If you're arguing for present support of Mobygames, then you're arguing for Gamefly's actions, and that is the worst disservice to what Moby really stands for.

Indra's trolling is disservice. Supporting the present compromised site is disservice.
Starting a brand new collaborative gaming site is the best service.

(Edited by András Gregorik (65), Oct 12, 2013)

Re: This is my opinion, if you care to read it

Parf (7786) on Oct 12, 2013


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The main problem here, ad why the majority of the "old timers" are either silent or left is because noone (read: owners or founders) listened to what the experienced staff (admins and approvers) and users had to say. We saw the bud of the new design months before it was launched in the approver forum and were asked to evaluate and bug report. People spent a tremendous amount of time doing this because they wanted the new site to be perfect.

It kind of stings when, out of nowhere, this new design suddenly launches... And not only is absolutely nothing addressed, but the half the core site is also broken as icing on the cake. If gamefly wants to use this as a back end for their rental service, it's quite an odd choice to buy mobygames of all sites, where people mainly contribute strange, rare, forgotten and foreign games. What good will that do them?

Slapping ads all over wouldn't be a complaint even if the site actually worked to use. I've spent countless hours researching games just to add them here, and yet I have no problem washing my hands with this whole thing and count my losses if this how the users are treated. With silence and ignorance. That, if anything, hurts my soul.

(Edited by Parf (7786), Oct 12, 2013)

Re: This is my opinion, if you care to read it

Alex Z (1950) on Oct 12, 2013


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I was a small contributor too. I sometimes (only sometimes because I was only putting in PC games or reviews, which were approved fairly fast) was frustrated with this site, but I realized what a great asset this was for the gaming culture. I believe that VG is an art form and no art form can exist without its critics with their sharp reviews and without its historians who preserve the old, forgotten origins for all posterity.

Which is why I too am disappointed with what has happened to this site. Not nearly as much as the heavy contributors that have been here for ages, but as a Wikia admin I can imagine how bad they feel. But I knew this would happen. I didn't know it would be quite like this, but who did? Oh, right, Indra predicted it perfectly. INDDDDDDDRAAAAA!!! At any rate, I've seen this happen to HoTU, and once my favorite reviewer became inactive (it was Jeanne, her takes on several games totally matched my own which was very efficient - instead of reading dozens of reviews I could decide which game to get based just on her's) and I peeked in the forums to find out why just to discover the huge dissatisfaction of the top members I knew MG would go down eventually.

It's sad, it's unfair, but it's life. Unless one of GF's exec's heart suddenly grows three sizes and s/he decides to get heavily involved in MG, listen to the users' and contributers' laments and do something about it MG is doomed. This isn't very likely, though. It's much more likelier that with no new updates there'll be fewer and fewer visits until GF decides to cut their losses and sell MG for peanuts. Hopefully the funds could be gathered via KS and MG would be resurrected in some form or another (as a wiki, perhaps?).

Frankly, even that is unlikely to happen. By that time there won't be enough fans left to buy this site, and any price GF would want would be too high for anyone. So take a stroll around the place. Take a look at your favorite games. Read your favorite reviews. In a few years you won't be able to do even that.

Re: This is my opinion, if you care to read it

Fred VT (25923) on Oct 13, 2013


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Nélio Wrote:
But quitting the site, mocking it in the forum and on Facebook, and protesting so visually with your new avatars and usernames, is really a disservice to us all. I understand you're hugely disappointed and frustrated, but that won't help. It will just undermine MobyGames even more to the eyes of the public and its new owners.

In this unfortunate time, MobyGames has never needed our focus and support as badly as now. If we don't stand by it, no one else will and it will have been all in vain. MobyGames will surely be doomed if everyone walks away or stays just to bash it day and night.

Maybe it's a lot to ask, but I don't think anyone here wants MobyGames to die, so please get your act together and be professional about it - even if others weren't. Things will only get better if everyone cooperates towards the same goal.



As my new nickname suggests, I am not only, like erav, one of the newcomers, but also the last one to volunteer for approving (erav being the one just before me I think). In the last year, I contributed more than in the five years before, and started approving. I was willing to be that new blood the site needed to keep going.

When the redesign happened, I first stopped my activity because the site wasn't functional enough to do a good job, then I went on strike with others mostly out of solidarity, as I haven't been abused the way they were.

As time went by, barely anything got fixed, and we seldom got any response from GameFly. They have show that they either don't care about MG, or don't care about its community.

It may seem that we are merely trolling at some point, but we actually try to find alternatives, our input being ignored here anyway. We have not been idle mocking the database we gave our all to.

One thing I have been doing is participating in the wiki for a potential database that could eventually not only replace MG, but even be a source for it because the data will be free and will include sources:

http://wiki.oregami.org/display/OR/Final+Fantasy+series

We have simply moved on and in some case decided to make use of the experience we gained from contributing to MG.

Re: This is my opinion, if you care to read it

Indra was here (20900) on Oct 13, 2013


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One of the guys in the pub mentioned that it has been one month since the redesign. Don't you just hate winning arguments without even trying? :p

Re: This is my opinion, if you care to read it

lilalurl (732) on Oct 13, 2013


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And 15 days since these "apologies"

Greg Mueller (3), Sep 30, 2013

"We have been working on getting bugs documented and we've brought on a new developer to help us with the work. "

"I can only tell you that we are working on Moby and we do want to make it something you'll enjoy using and be proud of once again. We'll be getting some updates out soon and we'll be sure to post here to let you know if you're still around. "



http://www.mobygames.com/forums/dga,2/dgb,4/dgm,181951/

I hope my reply is professional enough in the investigative domain -).

(Edited by lilalurl (732), Oct 13, 2013)

Re: This is my opinion, if you care to read it

is_that_rain_or_tears (667) on Oct 16, 2013


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People may always leave us, and one day they do if we haven't left for first; things can always leave us, and one day they do if we haven't left for first.

You might notice that the irritation, disgruntlement, anger - on, in some apparently pathological case, puerile anger - of the faithful users and contributors of this site is proportional to the weight of the contribution they provided. I deem it comfortable to be cold-minded, and even optimistic, having not sweat for many thousand or hundred hours and days of one's life on and for Moby.

You seem to be hiding to yourself that dialogue requires two sides, and so collaboration does. I have the firm belief that the ugliness of reality shall never be a reason to veil it with positive untruth before directing our eye at it. Moby left, although, I firmly believe, all of the members of this community did all what they could to prevent this from happening. From this it follows that nothing can be done anymore.