Forums > MobyGames > Criminal Protagonists - Problematic.
Indra was here (20756) on 12/20/2008 10:05 PM · Permalink · Report
Kitsune and myself even started to think about criminal protagonists. Started out ages ago by approvers Wildcard and Terok Nor (details in MG wiki). But the description details becomes problematic:
--> If all of the time, then GTA strikes out.
--> If some of the time, Elder Scrolls is in.
beetle120 (2415) on 12/21/2008 9:10 AM · edited · Permalink · Report
How about a mission or missions that requires the protagonist to break a law (according to the game world laws) to successfully pass the mission or game (i.e. Cannot finish the the game without breaking the law).
edit: How about this 2nd option, a mission is required to be wanted by law authorities. (i.e. If you can get though the game without been wanted by the authorities, even if it takes a lot of skill, then it is excluded from this group)
The cranky hermit (2926) on 12/21/2008 5:00 PM · Permalink · Report
To me, the description "criminal protagonists" means that the player is expected to break the law regularly during gameplay. Whether he is wanted by authorities constantly, sometimes, or never is a moot point. GTA is in because the player must commit violent and sociopathic crimes in order to advance through the game. Elder Scrolls is out because there is no such expectation of the player.
Indra was here (20756) on 12/21/2008 7:16 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start The cranky hermit wrote--]To me, the description "criminal protagonists" means that the player is expected to break the law regularly during gameplay. [/Q --end The cranky hermit wrote--] Expectation to break the law is an interesting limitation, for now. Noted.
Pseudo_Intellectual (66360) on 12/21/2008 7:22 PM · Permalink · Report
GTA is in because the player must commit violent and sociopathic crimes in order to advance through the game.
We'll just say there isn't much game without it 8)
Indra was here (20756) on 12/21/2008 7:41 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
Do you have to commit crimes in all GTA games? I don't remember since I always try to commit crimes, regardless of the game. :p
I think Oleg would be the only person to actually remember this, since he's the only person I know of who doesn't try to run over grandma while driving (she's a gangster...they're all gangsters!!!) :p
vedder (70767) on 12/21/2008 8:15 PM · Permalink · Report
Most missions in all the GTA games have criminal elements that need to be performed. Technically you could off course opt not to perform any criminal acts, but this would turn the game into some kind of "stroll around the block"-simulator and wouldn't actually progress in the game.
Chentzilla (227) on 1/5/2009 10:30 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Pseudo_Intellectual wrote--]GTA is in because the player must commit violent and sociopathic crimes in order to advance through the game.
We'll just say there isn't much game without it 8) [/Q --end Pseudo_Intellectual wrote--]
But that's how all games should be played – should be designed to be played.
Ace of Sevens (4479) on 12/21/2008 10:16 PM · Permalink · Report
This could be problematic. I think we should restrict it to felonies. Otherwise, every game where you break a padlock goes in the category.
Foxhack (32100) on 12/21/2008 11:27 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Ace of Sevens wrote--]This could be problematic. I think we should restrict it to felonies. Otherwise, every game where you break a padlock goes in the category. [/Q --end Ace of Sevens wrote--]Guess the Sly Cooper series fits in then. :p
St. Martyne (3648) on 12/21/2008 8:32 PM · Permalink · Report
We already have a Gangster game group, you know. I am not sure that doubling all the entries there in a new group would be a good idea.
Is there a possibility to rethink this group, so that it won't include organized crime?
Depeche Mike (17455) on 12/22/2008 4:13 AM · Permalink · Report
How about people who are wrongly accused? Criminally persecuted protagonists?
Depeche Mike (17455) on 12/22/2008 1:41 PM · Permalink · Report
is that a double negative?
Foxhack (32100) on 12/23/2008 12:31 AM · edited · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Depeche Mike Isguder wrote--]is that a double negative? [/Q --end Depeche Mike Isguder wrote--]No.
There's a huge difference between people who break the law because it was their choice, and people who are only accused of breaking the law (but are still hunted by the police for it.)
In my opinion, they shouldn't be mixed together. One could be classifed as "bad"; the other too, but for all intents and purposes of the story, they are not.
Depeche Mike (17455) on 12/23/2008 2:10 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Kit Silva wrote--] [Q2 --start Depeche Mike Isguder wrote--]is that a double negative? [/Q2 --end Depeche Mike Isguder wrote--]No.
There's a huge difference between people who break the law because it was their choice, and people who are only accused of breaking the law (but are still hunted by the police for it.)
In my opinion, they shouldn't be mixed together. One could be classifed as "bad"; the other too, but for all intents and purposes of the story, they are not. [/Q --end Kit Silva wrote--]
I was just being cheeky Kit ;) I couldn't wrap my mind around what you meant with: "I don't think they shouldn't be included"
Indra was here (20756) on 12/22/2008 8:39 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
Well, this doesn't seem to be going anywhere. :p
We all obviously want this Evil/Bad Guy - Go ahead make my day game group...but the definitions and limitations are obviously to ambigious for even us to come up with a definite identification.
The criminal protagonist has a lot of issues...as identified earlier than if even misdemenours are conidered crimes...hell, technically every game where you start shooting things is a crime...in addition to identify games that aren't already in the gangster group.
Ah hell. Let's just call a vote. Choose on of the following game ambigious game groups you really, really want to see up and running. If it ain't under this list. Wait next year to whine. :)
St. Martyne (3648) on 12/22/2008 11:19 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
I don't get it. I thought bad guys group and this one about criminals are two separate ideas.
Now you suggest that we choose between criminals and simply bad characters?
Anyway, if the majority thinks that they should be united, so be it. I think, Bad Guy is an effective and simple solution for the group name. Add the explicitly expressed note about exclusion of gangster games and it's good to go.
The point of group is to be helpful for the end user. It's not a big deal if the description would allow some ambiguity, as long as we all understand, in general terms, the point of the group's existence.
Depeche Mike (17455) on 12/23/2008 2:09 PM · Permalink · Report
I agree with his holiness on this one. There's probably a need for both groups. Even though I suggested Antagonistic Protagonist as the title, Bad Guy Protagonist is more clear an idea and, to me, defines that we're looking for archetypal descriptions of bad guys. The existence of Criminal / Gangster / Anti-Hero groups are also important for the games that fit moreso into those categories and keep the riff-raff out. It's as if we need all these groups to pop up at the same time?
Pseudo_Intellectual (66360) on 12/23/2008 8:46 PM · Permalink · Report
Make one group a subset of the other, as "Marvel comics games" are a subset of "comics-based games".
Depeche Mike (17455) on 12/23/2008 11:08 PM · Permalink · Report
Yes yes! What Rowan said!!!!
Indra was here (20756) on 12/24/2008 8:19 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
Well, I take it that the antigonist game group is a sure thing, then. Now its the Bad guy (we need a really better name for this, if someone is able) vs. Criminal game group.
As a matter of technical description, I can pretty much forsee the limitations for the criminal game group (tentative already in the making).
Question is:
[1] Can a bloke be bad, not an antigonist, and not commit any crime?
[2] In accordance to Rowan (Pseudo), the Bad guy group is the bigger group, would "probably" mean that ALL games in the gangster group would by default go in this group too (if I did not mis-interpret this?)
Tricky.
Pseudo_Intellectual (66360) on 12/24/2008 8:26 PM · Permalink · Report
Can a bloke be bad, not an antigonist, and not commit any crime?
Doesn't Malcolm the jester from Kyrandia fit this bill in Kyrandia 3?
"probably" mean that ALL games in the gangster group would by default go in this group too
To avoid too much games-being-in-redundant-groups, as with the Marvel comics example the comics-inspired group would just say in its description "don't add games based on Marvel comics to this group -- they would all belong, but we have a separate group for them over here".