Forums > Game Talk > Games doomed to comic/manga-stylistics?
J. P. Gray (115) on 10/1/2009 4:44 PM · Permalink · Report
The style of mainstream, big-budget games is often said to be derived from film, but I've often thought comics/manga are a better fit for what we see stylistically. Think of every review that notes a game's similarity to the Matrix in terms of the presented action. So many! Yet remember the Matrix's action style can be fairly described as being derived itself from manga (and therefore also anime) techniques.
There's nothing "wrong" with the style in and of itself, but it's remarkable how many top-flight games today take the same exact approach. Kratos' ultraviolent romp through a sadistic world filled with insanely buffed males and scrawny, big-breasted, scantily-clad ladies obviously draws stylistically from comics, and since God of War's success we've seen a whole glut of stylistically derivative works of that stylistically derivative work. So many dual-wielding, acrobatic blood-spattered avatars--the only variation sometimes being that the avatar is herself a scrawny, big-breasted, scantily-clad lady.
Is the comic/manga style particularly suited to gaming? Yes, actually. A hero that has a preternatural bullet absorption rate is useful for pacing and balance, and over-the-top cinematic brutality has always livened up what might otherwise be a dull button-masher. Characterization is simplified greatly and leads directly to conflict that is conducive to game-like simulation if it adheres to the standard of comics, and standard comics-style passive rewards (middle-schooler sex and violence thrills) are certainly both de rigueur and popular for gaming. They are also, naturally, a cost-effective means of making one's game more entertaining for the average gamer than it would be based on mechanics alone.
I'm no aficionado of comics, so if you're about to tell me my view of the form is cliched and limited, I'll agree with you. Further, my issue is not chiefly with the perceived style but the lack of variety. If you compare the different stylistic plans from the 80's to the stylistic plans of today, you'll see many plans have been abandoned while others have been refined and re-refined many times over. We used to have a large bush with many different branches stylistically, but development now focuses on innumerable reiterations of just a few twigs.
Are these the only real paths that allow for today's multi-million dollar budgets to produce profitable games? Is this what people want, or is it what is most available and readily found? Is this inevitable? Desirable? Good/bad? Am I off base in parts or in total? What do you think?
GAMEBOY COLOR! (1990) on 10/1/2009 8:39 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
I'm not sure that the way games look today have much to do with comics. Look back through the years of games past, and you'll see a lot of similarities.
GAMEBOY COLOR! (1990) on 10/1/2009 11:40 PM · Permalink · Report
Sorry, I didn't mean to hijack.
J. P. Gray (115) on 10/2/2009 1:46 PM · Permalink · Report
No worries! Hijack at will. :-)
Ace of Sevens (4479) on 10/2/2009 12:31 AM · Permalink · Report
What sort of style do you want to see? Can you cite some examples. Comics/manga is incredibly broad.
J. P. Gray (115) on 10/2/2009 1:37 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
For Western comics, my view is summed up well by Bill Watterson.
"You can make your superhero a psychopath, you can draw gut-splattering violence, and you can call it a ‘graphic novel,’ but comic books are still incredibly stupid."
Again, this is a stereotype! Likely derived from my limited experience with the "gritty" and "adult" nihilistic books from the 80's and 90's. But it holds true. Heroes are misunderstood and moody, or grizzled sadistic antiheroes. Female characters are designed, clothed, and characterized chiefly with adolescent ideas of sex in mind. Villains tend to be more of the bureaucratic/official mold, with some more classic antagonists thrown in the mix occasionally. Action is frequently characterized as "mature" by way of sex and gore.
For manga, the stereotype would be super-powered androgynous teenagers with cutesy sidekicks interacting with ridiculous technology, facing villains that are either vamps or silent vicious types, the sort that smirk in slow motion while eviscerating some doe-eyed heroine, etc. The recurring theme of characterization seems to be one of teenage angst and moodiness, with a backdrop of some nefarious plot to destroy the world. Throw in some giant monsters and robots, and I think I've described most of the medium that I've experienced. Action is ludicrously acrobatic, anti-gravitational and full of flashing lines, clothes-ruffling mystery wind, and bright colors.
Again, these aren't -bad- forms in and of themselves, but they seem to be where more and more game designers get their stylistic ideas.
Big John WV (26954) on 10/2/2009 1:36 AM · Permalink · Report
Hey J.P., you are talking about WET aren't you? I've played the demo of that I have to admit it is a terrible game, nothing but a Kill Bill-style game with a a Matrix/Max Payne gimmick and lousy graphics to boot.
Parf (7873) on 10/2/2009 1:16 PM · Permalink · Report
From what I've seen of Wet, it just seems like a Tarantino movie turned into a game, but without success.
I do have to say though, that games nowadays (especially action games developed in the west) seem to constantly steal ideas from one another (Shen Mue + Devil May Cry = God of War = Heavenly Sword = ... = ... ). I guess it's a way of refining something, but at the same time it just feels lazy. Stylistically, it seems we have a rather broad spectrum today, while gameplay-wise I'd say it's gotten narrower. At least the big budget titles. I understand there's only so many ways you can make an action game, and Hollywood has shown us that you can re-use the same formula for several decades, as long as you hide it behind some pretty explosions and computer effects.
So, while I follow your logic, I think the gameplay mechanics of games are more in need of freshening up than the coat of paint that they apply on top of it. There are exceptions to the rule, obviously, but the norms for genres seem to be more or less set in stone until someone brave enough to try something new comes along only to see his fresh ideas being implemented in every single game the next couple of years.
J. P. Gray (115) on 10/2/2009 1:41 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
But the two influence each other, no? If you're going for the comic book style of action, that either means a byzantine control system or a lot of QTEs. If you're going for the comic book style of characterization, that means you play a moody, misunderstood, overpowered hero that is supremely difficult to kill; it means you are facing off against a bunch of faceless bureaucrats and their henchmen, who are destroying or ruining the world. At the same time, however, their intricate plan is easily foiled by monotonous smitings dealt out by one guy. Given the simple player interaction and the epic high stakes of the plot, that means linearity with a lot of emotional/dramatic cut-scenes that seem disconnected in scope from the simple way the player actually interacts with the game.
Maybe I'm just completely mistaken--based on the posts in this thread it seems to be looking that way. :-D
St. Martyne (3648) on 10/2/2009 3:08 PM · Permalink · Report
Although I always enjoy reading your posts and find them incredibly thoughtful, I'm still somewhat clueless as to their exact point. You obviously acknowledge that your take on games is exceptionally stereotypical, and yet still proceed to apply the same criticisms to the genre as a whole.
I don't think that's sound. However, I do believe that the key issue in play here and in your "indie divide" thread is the same for both of us. Basically, lack of variety. Not enough games to satiate the hunger of any possible individual possessing any possible mindset and taste. Even "indie" games are, apparently, not "indie" enough for you. That's okay. But that's not a ingrained defect of video games in general. Just the obvious consequence of the fact that not nearly enough people working on such a promising and exciting medium as video games.
Take music. Nobody asks if you like music. That's a silly question. Everybody likes music in some way or another. People are usually interested in what kind of music you like, what genre, country, language, age it is. And there are centuries worth of it combined with equal measure of XX-XXI cultural boom to accommodate any possible taste and person. Not a single music fan in the world, will agree with you, that all music there is, is as it must be.
So, no need to bitch about what is. It will be there, because the mindset of an average gamer will never change, irregardless of his/her age. So the only thing we, as gamers without talent, can hope for is that more talented, interested individuals will come around with something to say. And as more and more kids grow up with gaming already in their DNA, I am sure the goal of diversifying the gaming cultural space will be achieved.
Personally, and I really mean "personally", it is by no means as it is should be. So, personally, I am rather content with how it is. Of course, I yearn for more talented designers sharing my values and tastes. But, I'm still okay with discovering little gems of virtue in the sea of derivativeness and genericness. I don't experience a compulsive repulsion to most of games as Sciere described it in the neighboring thread. I don't need a game to look like The Path, for me to approach it. I really enjoy finding gold in mud like Suikoden, and I believe its much more valuable then something like Braid, which obnoxiously screams "I'm different" in your face, even though Braid is a fantastic puzzle game, one of the best I've ever played (it's story left me cold, though). As for Suikoden, it is a simple, rather generic, Japanese RPG, which possess a really kind, cozy and warmhearted vibe, that is really impossible to detect, assessing it by its looks and a rundown of its game mechanics, alone.
But, as I said, that's just me. Me, who enjoys listen to the same 12 bar blues, over and over again, just to find a single note in a place I wasn't expecting it. As I said, what we all need is more games, different games, bad games, good games, weird games, generic games and every kind of games there is, in hopes that we will find something suited to us.
J. P. Gray (115) on 10/3/2009 4:30 PM · Permalink · Report
Great post--I think you described the garbled futility of my posts very well. Exhaustively articulated nonsense is still nonsense, right? :-)
Your point is well-taken. When complaining about a lack of diversity, one should really take into account whether current patronage and distribution systems can actually -generate- that diversity. If not, it's like bitching at a cat because it doesn't bark like a dog.
It's also easy to fall into the trap of judging present games on the standard of timeless classics, but the very reason those -are- by definition timeless classics is because there have been successive generations of people that enjoy them. With current/recent games, there's no way to tell if that's the case because they simply haven't been around long enough. It's like comparing present-day art to past art--with the latter you can point to a long history of enjoyment as some objective proof of quality, whereas with the former you can only say who and how many like a certain work. You don't have any context except the fashion/trends of the present--picking out which titles will be looked back on as timeless gems is difficult if not impossible. They may be the most popular, or the most obscure--it's difficult to say, yet how easy to dismiss them out of hand.
micnictic (387) on 10/7/2009 1:00 PM · Permalink · Report
One thing, that games like God of War and many comics have in common, are the superhuman powers of the (anti-)hero. Action games always tend to oppose the player to large numbers of enemies. You fight all alone against hundreds or thousands of villains and monsters and you actually succeed. I think comic stylistics lend itself so well to such a kind of gameplay, because comics mostly deal with a quite similar theme.
I had a lot of fun with God of War, when I finally got around to play it a while ago. Not so much because of the primitive story, but because of the level design, which is really close to brilliant at times. I found the sequel to be much less engaging, however, and I guess most of the copycats aren't interesting either. Still, every formula can be handled in creative ways, if you ask me.