Forums > Game Talk > The state of Linux gaming
MZ per X (3017) on 10/18/2010 11:05 AM · Permalink · Report
Just wanted to share this interesting article on Linux gaming. Good read with some links for the interested.
BdR (7207) on 10/18/2010 12:46 PM · Permalink · Report
I think there are so few Linux games, because that more or less requires the game to be open source. And there are few remarkable open source games because open source efforts usually are not very creative or innovating efforts.
I think Jaron Lanier put it best in You Are Not a Gadget:
"There are other cases that involve creativity and imagination. A crowd process generally fails in these cases. The phrase “Design by Committee” is treated as derogatory for good reason. That is why a collective of programmers can copy UNIX but cannot invent the iPhone."
Just look at the more successful open source game projects. They are either efforts that initially started out as a commercial project (Quake, Duke Nukem 3D etc.) or they are carbon copies of existing games (Free Train, Frozen Bubble etc.).
MZ per X (3017) on 10/18/2010 8:09 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Bas de Reuver wrote--]I think Jaron Lanier put it best in You Are Not a Gadget:
"There are other cases that involve creativity and imagination. A crowd process generally fails in these cases. The phrase “Design by Committee” is treated as derogatory for good reason. That is why a collective of programmers can copy UNIX but cannot invent the iPhone." [/Q --end Bas de Reuver wrote--] He has a point there, although I don't think the iPhone was invented be Steve Jobs alone. =)
But this here is bogus in my eyes:
"I am amazed by the power of the collective to enthrall people to the point of blindness. Collectivists adore a computer operating system called LINUX, for instance, but it is really only one example of a descendant of a 1970s technology called UNIX. If it weren’t produced by a collective, there would be nothing remarkable about it at all."
Linux runs on Playstation 3! If that's not remarkable, I don't know what is. :o)
Pseudo_Intellectual (66360) on 10/18/2010 9:49 PM · Permalink · Report
a collective of programmers can copy UNIX but cannot invent the iPhone.
Doesn't the iPhone run on the back of BSD UNIX?
BdR (7207) on 10/19/2010 11:19 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Pseudo_Intellectual wrote--] Doesn't the iPhone run on the back of BSD UNIX? [/Q --end Pseudo_Intellectual wrote--] Yes, but so what? The OS wasn't what made the iPhone stand out from the crowd. I'm no apple fanboy, but I think it was the sleek design, multi-touch screen and an app store. Those were all designed and refined by Apple, not by some anonymous crowd of programmers, that was the point being made.
Maybe the Nintendo Wii and it's innovative controller design would have been a better example. Compare that to the Pandora 'open source' console, which may be technically impressive but it's not creative or innovative.
Maw (832) on 10/20/2010 9:34 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Bas de Reuver wrote--]I think there are so few Linux games, because that more or less requires the game to be open source. And there are few remarkable open source games because open source efforts usually are not very creative or innovating efforts.
I think Jaron Lanier put it best in You Are Not a Gadget:
"There are other cases that involve creativity and imagination. A crowd process generally fails in these cases. The phrase “Design by Committee” is treated as derogatory for good reason. That is why a collective of programmers can copy UNIX but cannot invent the iPhone."
Just look at the more successful open source game projects. They are either efforts that initially started out as a commercial project (Quake, Duke Nukem 3D etc.) or they are carbon copies of existing games (Free Train, Frozen Bubble etc.). [/Q --end Bas de Reuver wrote--]
It's a sad story, isn't it? It seems that after all, we NEED big corporate monopolies to lay down the law and enforce standards. Grassroot development was a nice idea, but it's hard for thousands of independent programmers to move forward in a unified direction.
It was interesting what he said about "encapsulation", and how the web seems to hate the idea of only showing your work when it's finished. Sourceforge is flooded with betas and unfinished projects.
leilei (343) on 10/18/2010 10:39 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
The trend goes back to 1995 when David Taylor had Abuse released on the Linux platform and he ported Quake to Linux a year later. At that point, the hottest Linux game to be waited for was Tux: A Quest for Herring, Linux's hopeful killer app of being a Mario 64 clone.
That game was never finished, but tired old TuxRacer pretty much represented Linux gaming since then.
I want to do something about the poor Linux game scene myself - there are no good fighting games, and there are too many unadvanced multiplayer shooters (i'm even guilty for running one of them). Even Linux dating sims are done by western weeaboos with the worst knowledge of human anatomy excused of the 'anime' art style ignorantly (sorry Unicorn, you've played games 503x better than these. When an otaku does it, its more of japan homaging and referencing than having a "pretty girl" actually be pretty). Then there's all those games done only FOR the promotion of a license rather than the love of the game. You may think this doesn't matter, but in a way for a creative direction, it certainly does. Also, the leader often only has the role of a coder... which can affect this.
Yes there are many commercial releases, but they're still not effective when your target audience majorily comprises of "join us now and share the software you'll be Free hackers you'll be Free". Linux gaming will always be a failed commercial market despite the optimists that always proclaim the next year is the year of Linux on the Desktop.
Indra was here (20756) on 11/1/2010 4:22 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
Never really understood why Linux never did replace Windows, despite all the hype by geeks with glasses thicker than my monitor trying to conquering the world and such.
Or perhaps some people are still oblivious that if a person doesn't have time to learn a new OS, that person usually makes more money than you do. :p
A favorite quote from meine sister: "If you can pay someone else to do it, why do it yourself?". :p
BdR (7207) on 11/2/2010 3:00 PM · Permalink · Report
The reason that linux never took off is pretty obvious, it focuses too much on technical details and way too little on actual people who are supposed to use the software (other than the programmers themselves).
And talking about quotes, "Linux is only free if your time costs nothing" pretty much sums it up.. ;)
mobygamer (92) on 11/2/2010 5:18 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Bas de Reuver wrote--]The reason that linux never took off is pretty obvious, it focuses too much on technical details and way too little on actual people who are supposed to use the software (other than the programmers themselves).
And talking about quotes, "Linux is only free if your time costs nothing" pretty much sums it up.. ;) [/Q --end Bas de Reuver wrote--]
Linux is easier than windows or harder, depending on the distribution. Ubuntu or linux mint are much easier then windows, while gentoo or slackware are much harder. People need to stop thinking linux is always harder then Windows(if they want to know the truth :p ).
Indra was here (20756) on 11/3/2010 4:24 PM · Permalink · Report
Ugh, don't remind me. First time I attempted to try Linux, I spent 3 hours figuring out what to type in so I can enter that dang desktop.
Traumatized ever since.
MZ per X (3017) on 11/10/2010 1:51 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Bhatara Dewa Indra I wrote--]Ugh, don't remind me. First time I attempted to try Linux, I spent 3 hours figuring out what to type in so I can enter that dang desktop. [/Q --end Bhatara Dewa Indra I wrote--] That's what Linux Live CDs like Knoppix are for. Boot them up and see what works and what not - and if you like it.
Indra was here (20756) on 11/10/2010 2:02 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
[Q --start MZ per X wrote--] That's what Linux Live CDs like Knoppix are for. Boot them up and see what works and what not - and if you like it. [/Q --end MZ per X wrote--]Which is part of the problem. Too many versions out there and a bit bewildering if you have no idea what you got yourself into.
Windows is only confusing during installation, hence pre-installed. You don't need any form of intelligence just to get to the desktop. Thus, more user-friendly for people who have to live with constant dead-lines.
For Linux, usually you need half a brain to actually figure it out. Some people just don't have the time. Hell, I know a lot of people that have trouble adapting with Windows. They probably would kill themselves if they tried Linux.
mobygamer (92) on 11/10/2010 3:04 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Bhatara Dewa Indra I wrote--] [Q2 --start MZ per X wrote--] That's what Linux Live CDs like Knoppix are for. Boot them up and see what works and what not - and if you like it. [/Q2 --end MZ per X wrote--]Which is part of the problem. Too many versions out there and a bit bewildering if you have no idea what you got yourself into.
Windows is only confusing during installation, hence pre-installed. You don't need any form of intelligence just to get to the desktop. Thus, more user-friendly for people who have to live with constant dead-lines.
For Linux, usually you need half a brain to actually figure it out. Some people just don't have the time. Hell, I know a lot of people that have trouble adapting with Windows. They probably would kill themselves if they tried Linux. [/Q --end Bhatara Dewa Indra I wrote--]
Ubuntu probably the easiest distribution along with linux mint, they aren't even confusing during installation, much easier then windows on that regard. You really sound like a troll, or very ignorant.
Indra was here (20756) on 11/10/2010 3:07 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
Nah. Trolls prefer personal attacks, a bit beneath me. Here we prefer to argue for argument's sake. Just a Windows fanboi. :p
mobygamer (92) on 11/4/2010 11:58 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start leileilol wrote--]But it is. When you want to do more beyond surf web, tweet, IM, text and email, then you're in for a mess of manual tweaking OCD you can't get out of.
Good luck getting minimal sound latency on positional audio! [/Q --end leileilol wrote--]
I will speak for ubuntu Playing games is as easy: Download .deb( instead of .exe or .msi or whatever) install then play.
Watching tv-show movies etc Install vlc through a gui called synaptic(u don't have to go to site and then download and etc so its easier)
Listening music( songbird amarok etc) Install through synaptic
Programs automatically update so u don't have to look every once in a while for new update.
Ofc if the distribution doesn't support something its going to be hard to get it working, but that also goes for windows.
And if you any problem, u ask on a linux forum of that distribution u are using and they help you, and then its only as easy as copying and pasting lines of text. Even a 3 year old can do that :)
Just my 2 cents.
Pseudo_Intellectual (66360) on 11/4/2010 4:48 PM · Permalink · Report
The big question then is why has it failed to take over the world the way that was anticipated?
Indra was here (20756) on 11/4/2010 8:08 PM · Permalink · Report
Lack of user-friendliness and inability to challenge the market controlled world of Windows business+casual users and Apple artistic users.
Pseudo_Intellectual (66360) on 11/4/2010 9:20 PM · Permalink · Report
As a non-Linux-user, II understand what a non-Linux-user's answer would be, but I was specifically interested in the reply from the advocate I was responding to.
mobygamer (92) on 11/4/2010 9:31 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Pseudo_Intellectual wrote--]The big question then is why has it failed to take over the world the way that was anticipated? [/Q --end Pseudo_Intellectual wrote--] Because Windows has a monopoly. Just like steam. These companies are experts at keeping that monopoly.
People don't develop as much games for linux, or programs, cause of the market windows has, due to its early lead. This effect increased their share significantly. Countless people i know say..."i would use linux if i could play all the games i want for windows ".
Windows got that early lead cause at that time, like 20 years ago,linux was in fact user-unfriendly, but when it started being friendly (around 4+/- years ago) it was too late.
Indra was here (20756) on 11/4/2010 11:32 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start I4C wrote--] ... but when it started being friendly (around 4+/- years ago) it was too late. [/Q --end I4C wrote--] Sheeid...four years ago? That isn't late. That's commercially moronic.
leilei (343) on 11/5/2010 12:09 AM · edited · Permalink · Report
It is. Myself, I've used Linux for 12 years and this is just the usual linux preaching we're seeing assuming we're all a bunch of newbies who have never touched it before. The "easy, user friendly" and popular Ubuntu distro is still horribly fragile. Don't deny the difficulty of using a fractured operating system. You can't even say it's easier than Windows NT 3.1.
Indra was here (20756) on 11/5/2010 1:41 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start leileilol wrote--]You can't even say it's easier than Windows NT 3.1. [/Q --end leileilol wrote--]If you're comparing it with Windows NT, might as well tell the local population to apply for a job at NASA. :p
Maybe a wee bit exaggeration there. :)
Cantillon (76884) on 11/5/2010 7:30 AM · Permalink · Report
Define easy. A cousin of mine bought a new PC with Windows 7. She couldn't even figure out how to set her keyboard to azerty. And she's certainly not the only one.
Mind you, I'm not saying everyone should switch to Linux. But I'm happy with the possibilities it gives me to operate my computer. That's all that counts for me.
Indra was here (20756) on 11/5/2010 8:23 AM · edited · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Cantillon wrote--]Define easy. A cousin of mine bought a new PC with Windows 7. She couldn't even figure out how to set her keyboard to azerty. And she's certainly not the only one. [/Q --end Cantillon wrote--] From what I've heard, XP is easier for newbies but harder for veterans trying to find more complex settings. Windows 7 is easier for veterans to customize but harder for newbies.
Good luck with Windows Vista...but does anyone listen to me? Noooo. :p
mobygamer (92) on 11/5/2010 9:51 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start leileilol wrote--]It is. Myself, I've used Linux for 12 years and this is just the usual linux preaching we're seeing assuming we're all a bunch of newbies who have never touched it before. The "easy, user friendly" and popular Ubuntu distro is still horribly fragile. Don't deny the difficulty of using a fractured operating system. You can't even say it's easier than Windows NT 3.1. [/Q --end leileilol wrote--]
Let me compare it to XP, since that is the OS i am using right now.
In ubuntu i can use internet, graphics card, sound card etc without grabbing drivers from the net while looking on the site from the providers,which aren't friendly for noobs, like i have to in xp, in ubuntu it just warns me it has drivers availabe and i press to install.
When there is an update for an app in xp i have to go grab it manually, in ubuntu i get warned and i just press a button to update and voila.
The user interface is better, has 2 bars 1 on top for shortcuts and options which are more intuitve then the unintuite start button in windows, 1 on bottom(for gnome, kde has 1 on bottom) which controls the work enviorments and applications running.
Doesn't crash every 2 weeks that require me to reformat and reinstall it yet again.
ubuntu is better then any windows OS i used,(95,98,XP,Vista)
Only reason i have windows is for games. Since i vastly prefer PC for gaming and wine isn't that good if you have an ATI card.
vedder (70767) on 11/5/2010 10:21 AM · Permalink · Report
I've never really used Linux (looked at it once because it came preinstalled on my laptop) I can't judge Linux, but you're being unfair in regards to Windows.
In ubuntu i can use internet, graphics card, sound card etc without grabbing drivers from the net while looking on the site from the providers,which aren't friendly for noobs, like i have to in xp, in ubuntu it just warns me it has drivers availabe and i press to install.
Windows XP is bad in this regard. Luckily Windows 7 does it all automatically as well. I built my current PC from scratch and didn't have to manually install any drivers.
When there is an update for an app in xp i have to go grab it manually, in ubuntu i get warned and i just press a button to update and voila.
This depends on the app. I use both Opera and Thunderbird (in XP and 7) and from time to time I just suddenly notice they're complete new versions. They update completely in the background and require zero user interaction. Why not all (small) applications do this, I don't know :/
The user interface is better, has 2 bars 1 on top for shortcuts and options which are more intuitve then the unintuite start button in windows, 1 on bottom(for gnome, kde has 1 on bottom) which controls the work enviorments and applications running.
I've never used the start menu anymore since Windows 98 SE. I enlarge and move my quicklaunch to a side of the screen and place all applications I use in there. So I have two bars as well. With Windows 7 this is no longer possible (without user mods), but I must confess that I haven't missed it due to the start bar mechanism they ripped off from Apple which works better than I imagined it would.
Doesn't crash every 2 weeks that require me to reformat and reinstall it yet again.
I haven't had Windows crash in 6 years. Interestingly this is when I first bought my own PC that I didn't have to share with parents/siblings. Of course their PCs are still crashing constantly. So you have a good point there that Windows is very noob proof. Or at least not on budget hardware.
leilei (343) on 11/5/2010 10:44 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
[Q --start I4C wrote--]When there is an update for an app in xp i have to go grab it manually, in ubuntu i get warned and i just press a button to update and voila.
[/Q --end I4C wrote--] yeah, and on your next bootup you're wondering why the hell you're seeing a text terminal. Some "safe mode" that is. The update manager also automatically gets new kernels and video drivers potentially regressing a working system (sometimes permanently if the newer drivers drop support for older hardware, which happens oh so often on Linux and due to kernels/regressions these new incompatible drivers are often your only choice)