Forums > Off Topic > Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged" versus "Bioshock"
St. Martyne (3648) on 7/21/2007 5:39 PM · Permalink · Report
Preparing myself for the upcoming release of "Bioshock" I've read the book Ken Levine was constantly referring to. It's supposed to be the anthem to the objectivism, a philosophy trend popularized by Ayn Rand herself. What do you think of it? Is a rational thought really a driving force of existence?
Do you know who is John Galt?
Sciere (930487) on 7/21/2007 6:09 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
I watched an interview with her from 1959 a few weeks ago (it's on YouTube), and her objectivism seems very close to egoism. It's perfectly reasonable if you are able and willing to make something of your life, but she leaves the others behind.
St. Martyne (3648) on 7/21/2007 6:19 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Sciere wrote--]I watched an interview with her from 1959 a few weeks ago (it's on YouTube), and her objectivism seems very close to egoism. It's perfectly reasonable if you are able and willing to make something of your life, but she leaves the others behind. [/Q --end Sciere wrote--]
Well, yes and no. If you're an egoist you are free to achieve your goal by any means necessary as long as it brings you profit. However, objectivism in Rand's interpretation uphold such values as truth (objective aka scientific), talent, passion and human superiority.
Sciere (930487) on 7/21/2007 6:46 PM · Permalink · Report
It's a very interesting theory with many aspects that could change the world for the good, but it is lacking empathy. If every human being aims for personal happiness through reason, people could use this to discard anyone close to them in the pursuit of this happiness. Living together, sharing, caring... these all have an irrational basis, but this is specifically what makes life interesting and surprising. I completely agree about science and rationalism as a foundation to govern a society, but not on an individual basis, as how people interact with each other.
St. Martyne (3648) on 7/21/2007 7:34 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Sciere wrote--]It's a very interesting theory with many aspects that could change the world for the good, but it is lacking empathy. If every human being aims for personal happiness through reason, people could use this to discard anyone close to them in the pursuit of this happiness. Living together, sharing, caring... these all have an irrational basis, but this is specifically what makes life interesting and surprising. I completely agree about science and rationalism as a foundation to govern a society, but not on an individual basis, as how people interact with each other. [/Q --end Sciere wrote--]
Ah! It's actually the core issue addressed to in the book. Because as you pointed out the objectivism objectively (the pun was intended =)) sucks when it comes to dealing with irrational human conditions: be it love, friendship, caring and sharing and so on.
As Rand puts it, her philosophy, can be, to a certain measure, applied to each of these emotions. For example, instead of love she proposes something similar to an "ownership deed". According to her a partner should first "earn" his/her mate and then inexplicably "own" her/him.That may sound as an ugly and animal way to behave, but once two partners have a complete and mutual understanding of each other ways (as it is in the book) it may seem to be.... well, for the lack of better word, rational.
And objectivism doesn't require discarding those close to you, only if they have no wish to make something of their lives on their own. Call it " the survival of the fittest" for humans.
To keep in line with the subject title, Ken Levine explained the shortcomings of objectivism quite simple. He said that all ideas are great on paper, but when it comes to people making them come true, they mostly suck. And Rapture City in Bioshock is a perfect example of failed idea, obviously the idea of objectivism.
The System Shock 1&2 style of retrospective narrative seems to be perfect for that kind of job. So I might say we have some great stuff coming our way.
Sciere (930487) on 7/21/2007 8:10 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
I'm looking forward to how it is applied in the game, it really puts the mind to work. In the interview (which is great, as the interviewer just starts smoking on television, just like in Good Night, and Good Luck), she got herself in an awkward situation when she had to explain how she was living together with an artist, who didn't make any money, and she was supporting him because he didn't earn enough to support himself. She had a hard time justifying that using her own theory =) Even regardless of that, interesting, but cold.