Forums > Game Forums > UPDATED: I cannot role-play evil or ruthless characters
MichaelPalin (1414) on 7/17/2008 5:21 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
Fuck!, definitively, I cannot roleplay bad guys. I was thinking on playing the game twice, the first one with a ruthless military woman that would do anything what it takes to take the human race to the top and another one yet not defined that would be much more gentle and, maybe, romantic. Well, I have found myself shifting to a nicer character more and more as I play the game.
SPOILERS
I have finally realized this in the scene where you get to kill the last rachni queen. My ruthless Shepard would just kill the beast, it's too dangerous to have such species in the galaxy. I have finally do that, but now I feel too guilty for it and I don't want to keep on playing the game like this.
END SPOILERS
Are you used to role-play "bad"? How do you do it? Am I a pussy? Being realistic, evil is very usual even in reality and it's important to learn from it. I would like to, but being myself the evil one is too hard, :(
By the way, the paragon/renegade system seems wrong, it looks more like good/evil. I mean, what do I receive renegade points for being an asshole or even for using intimidation if I do the job I was assigned?
UPDATE
SPOILERS
Oh!, just great, if it wasn't enough bad to extinguish a race, now I have to extinguish two, :(
END OF SPOILERS
DJP Mom (11333) on 7/17/2008 10:02 PM · Permalink · Report
There are an awful lot of people (here and everywhere) who will say "it's just a game!", and of course it is just a game, but if you have that kind of mindset that continually steers you onto the "nicer" path, and you can't divorce yourself temporarily from your sense of morality (ethics, maybe) you're probably stuck with it. It's not at all the same thing as being able to kill people and monsters in games, that's easy enough usually, right? It's choosing an entire evil life path (in a game!) that's so difficult. Personally I think it stems from some kind of survival instinct, however counterintuitive that seems; something like, Those who cooperate with others last longer, or maybe; Don't make people hate you, somebody might stab you in the back...
But it is just a game, and maybe you're just a nice guy :D
MichaelPalin (1414) on 7/18/2008 9:42 PM · Permalink · Report
But it is just a game, and maybe you're just a nice guy :D
Yes, I guess, but I would like to enjoy stories of non-good characters too. A solution could be to just push the coherent dialog lines and then enjoy the story outside of my avatar. But not empathizing with your character is not very funny in RPGs, is it? Still, I killed the queen and followed the story.
BurningStickMan (17916) on 7/17/2008 10:26 PM · Permalink · Report
This is funny, because I was after the exact same thing. I set out with the intent of playing the toughest, most ruthless, jaded woman in space. The only thing that would even draw the slightest smile would be watching my renegade meter go up. My goal was to be Admiral Cain of the Battlestar Pegasus.
Somewhere along the way, either I, or BioWare, confused ruthless with evil. To get renegade points, you had to do pretty cruel things for no reason (granted, not as puppy-stomping as KOTOR). I take ruthless to mean whatever it takes to complete a goal. So there was no reason to kill the queen, but I get paragon points for letting her live. There were a number of cases when you had the option to double-cross someone on a delivery mission, but I needed the money more that the doodad, so I get paragon points when I turn it in. And no matter how cold and distant I was to Liara, the you know what scene still happened.
The other issue was that I wanted to do the side quests for money and XP. In a surprising number of those cases, the paragon path was to do the quest (say, get the water running to a colony again) and the renegade path was not to do it at all. You couldn't bribe, extort, or explain to the game your selfish, calculated reasons for doing the quest - you either did it and were Mother Theresa, or didn't do it and got no money and no XP.
In short, I thought it was broken too. I ended up about half and half, to my disappointment. Hoping Fallout 3 will be a little more readily amoral.
MichaelPalin (1414) on 7/18/2008 9:54 PM · Permalink · Report
Is Liara the one of the you know what scene?, didn't knew it. It would be very great system failure if you cannot avoid that scene. I mean, I'm starting to make my Shepard fall in love with Kaidan (the biotic guy), even if she doesn't want to. I don't know how far can I take this, but having her fall for Liara would be a total nonsense.
By the way, I think you should have killed the Queen. From my point of view, a ruthless character would have seen the rachni as a potential danger for the galaxy, as the offical story tells, without hearing what the queen tells. I was actually surprised that the Council saw it as a wrong decision.
BurningStickMan (17916) on 7/18/2008 11:54 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
The way I remember it going is that Liara just keeps showing up. You're consistently giving no interest, not even a smile, but the game keeps pushing you toward that moment no matter what. I'm pretty sure that you can say "no" at the final decision, but the lead-up progressively makes no sense. I recall a forced kiss as well. Overall, it was like an awkward romantic comedy. I mostly just remember the frustration of watching my errant space commander straying from the cold and lonely future I had planned for her. By contrast, I had no trouble whatsoever getting Kaidan to leave me alone.
I haven't played the game since release and have honestly forgotten most of the details. But as I recall, the goal was to protect/cleanse that colony. Goal accomplished, and therefore, killing the queen would be excessive. I kind of wanted my Shepard to be like Harvey Keitel's cleaner - you call her in as a last resort, she takes care of the problem neatly, and she goes on her way. Maybe I was too task-oriented and should have been going for the unconditional domination of humanity, in which case I would agree with you.
St. Martyne (3648) on 7/19/2008 5:13 AM · Permalink · Report
Yeah, you can make her develop an interest in Kaidan. That's what I did. I didn't have any awkward (at least it didn't feel that way for me) moments between me and Liara. In the end she made some suggestions about me and Kaidan, and I acknowledged that there is something between me and him. She left me alone afterwards.
BurningStickMan (17916) on 7/19/2008 5:47 PM · Permalink · Report
Then it sounds like you can pick one or the other love story to follow, but you have to pick one. If you're gruff to both of them, then one still persists.
Or maybe I just picked a wacky combo of conversation choices.
Unicorn Lynx (181780) on 7/19/2008 3:20 AM · Permalink · Report
Are you used to role-play "bad"?
I like doing that sometimes, out of morbid curiosity, but I usually save right before the evil decision, and then replay again, this time choosing a good action. I haven't actually completed an RPG in an evil way, although I do recall vaguely some slaughtering of innocents in "Arcanum" which I didn't bother to redeem by loading an earlier save and pretending it never happened.
MichaelPalin (1414) on 7/19/2008 4:07 PM · Permalink · Report
Yes, you were the guy telling he would reload San Andreas every time he'd run over a pedestrian, :) I also try to do that at the beginning of a GTA, but it becomes just impracticable to be that nice.
But I would like to be evil through a whole RPG once in a while. In the end, it doesn't feel funny to be yourself in an RPG. Like in Gothic games, where I always end up being an explorer.
By the way, I have also feel guilty recently even with FPSs. In Timeshift, given the plot, you have to kill dozens upon dozens of goons. At the beginning it was okay, but after killing too much of them I started to realize that they may also have families and maybe being a goon was their only possibility in life. And if you haven't tried F.E.A.R., you should even if it's just for the pain screams of the soldier. They are clones at least, which makes things way easier.
Unicorn Lynx (181780) on 7/20/2008 3:37 AM · Permalink · Report
I started to realize that they may also have families and maybe being a goon was their only possibility in life.
So I'm not the only one who's had such thoughts... glad to know :) I remember killing a policeman in some game, totally in self-defense (the dumbasses started shooting at me without warning just because I killed their corrupted s.o.b. chief). Looking at his corpse, I thought: "So he won't come home today. His wife will probably call a couple of friends first. Then she'll learn about the shootout at the police station. She'll see the names of those who were killed. She'll think first: 'No, this cannot be...'... And a cute, scared little child will probably pull her by the skirt while she's standing there and say in a sad voice: 'Mommy? Where's Daddy?'..
Yep, that's how it is. I forgot who said that: "killing one human being is like destroying an entire world".
you should even if it's just for the pain screams of the soldier.
I remember I refused to play some really good game for a long time because you had to kill wolves in it, and they screamed in pain so pitifully before dying that I simply couldn't do it.
MichaelPalin (1414) on 7/21/2008 9:08 AM · Permalink · Report
You nearly made me cry, :)
Wizo (28759) on 7/21/2008 6:02 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start JazzOleg wrote--] I remember I refused to play some really good game for a long time because you had to kill wolves in it, and they screamed in pain so pitifully before dying that I simply couldn't do it. [/Q --end JazzOleg wrote--]
I have no problem playing games involving the killing of people, but killing animals... that's another story. I even had to overcome my conscience killing the dragons in Baldurs Gate.
Indra was here (20756) on 7/22/2008 8:19 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Wizo wrote--] I have no problem playing games involving the killing of people, but killing animals... that's another story. I even had to overcome my conscience killing the dragons in Baldurs Gate. [/Q --end Wizo wrote--]
...and I thought I heard it all. Interesting to know what moral background you had growing up to come up with this current psychological behaviour.
Indra was here (20756) on 7/22/2008 8:18 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
[Q --start MichaelPalin wrote--]Fuck!, definitively, I cannot roleplay bad guys. [/Q --end MichaelPalin wrote--]
Evil in real-life (well, more profession related) Practically a saint in games...only overrided if being evil introduces more experience and sub-quests though.
Matt Neuteboom (976) on 8/7/2008 9:27 PM · Permalink · Report
I have to admit what you are feeling is perfectly reasonable, mainly because I know what that feels like. When I was a child I could not play ANY evil character, everything had to be done for the right thing. In fact, up to about a year ago I couldn't help but try to make my characters as perfect as possible.
In more recent months I've been able to conquer this inhibition, and I have to say, it makes playing RPGs so much better. The characters are far more memorable when they have flaws. They're so much more interesting than simply a "normal" good guy. I honestly like it a lot better.
Slug Camargo (583) on 8/11/2008 12:10 AM · edited · Permalink · Report
After about an eternity and a half of having it sitting on my desk, I finally started playing S.T.A.L.K.E.R. a few days ago and, boy, did I wanna kick my own ass for wasting my time with so many shitty titles during all this time --the game is simply fantastic.
Anyway, I had a job where I needed to kill this one guy, and turned out I found him sitting at a campfire with two other fellas. I had no way to know which one of them was my target, and anyway I was pretty sure the three of them would turn against me as soon as I started shooting, so what did I do? I backed up a few meters, threw a grenade on the fire, and there, all my problems were instantly solved.
As I was carelessly looting the corpses of the three poor clueless fellas, whistling a tune like it wasn't my fault, I suddenly remembered this thread and Mike's whole moral dilemma and Oleg's a few months ago and such, and I thought: "Man, I'm such a garbage of a human being!" :P
St. Martyne (3648) on 8/11/2008 8:50 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Dr. Von Katze wrote--] Anyway, I had a job where I needed to kill this one guy, and turned out I found him sitting at a campfire with two other fellas. I had no way to know which one of them was my target, and anyway I was pretty sure the three of them would turn against me as soon as I started shooting, so what did I do? I backed up a few meters, threw a grenade on the fire, and there, all my problems were instantly solved. [/Q --end Dr. Von Katze wrote--]
Hey! I remember this one. However, I did it up close and dirty. Starting with execution of the first one with a headshot from AK and then continuing clockwise. Ah, sweet times!