Forums > Game Forums > Enchanted Arms > trivia: graphical novel of 48 pages
Pseudo_Intellectual (66360) on 11/2/2007 9:57 PM · Permalink · Report
1) "Graphical novel" vs. "graphic novel"? 2) A novel of 48 pages we'd call a novella; a graphic novel of 48 pages I think we'd call... a comic book.
St. Martyne (3648) on 11/3/2007 10:15 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Sciere wrote--]though I can't really tell where comic books stop and graphical novels begin. [/Q --end Sciere wrote--]
Not at 48 pages, according to game's publisher.
Pseudo_Intellectual (66360) on 11/3/2007 5:06 PM · Permalink · Report
From the looks of things there's no such thing as the lowly comic book anymore; marketers have gone to great lengths to distance their mature and sophisticated visual storytelling from the crass juvenilia of comix. If they still sold He-Man figures today, the packages would advertise that each life-like articulated collectible came with a 12-page graphic novel.
Of course, we know better. All the same, I guess I can't object to parroting of the line they're feeding us... but I'd put it in quotes 8)
St. Martyne (3648) on 11/3/2007 5:58 PM · Permalink · Report
Without venturing into the area of atistic evaluation of these two terms, I'll just say that I do not believe length is the criterion by which "Graphic Novel" separates itself from "Comic Books".
Just as the conventional term - Novel, as used nowadays, does not imply any number of pages for a reader to expect.
I would have gladly brought some Wikipedia links as an example, however, the subject does appear to be of some controversy, so, I guess I just leave it at that. Comic Book suits me just as fine.
DJP Mom (11333) on 11/3/2007 8:42 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
[Q --start St_Martyne wrote--] Just as the conventional term - Novel, as used nowadays, does not imply any number of pages for a reader to expect. [/Q --end St_Martyne wrote--]
Novel, per se, doesn't imply length of narrative. However, novella does, as in "a length somewhere between a short story and a novel", which in turn assigns an imagined length to novel, as in: somewhat longer than a novella and quite a bit longer than a short story ;-)
Edit - There is one particular thing that separates graphic novels from comic books - the same thing that distinguishes a vertebrate from it's less bony relatives - a spine. A square one.
mobiusclimber (235) on 11/5/2007 9:23 PM · Permalink · Report
^ that's a very good point. i'd also like to point out tho that comic books can and do end up being collected together into a bound book w/ a hard spine. but 47 pages is definitely not too short to call it a graphic novel. (if you've read the neil gaiman/yoshitaka amano collaboration you know that just b/c a graphic novel is SHORT it still demands to be called a graphic "novel.")
Pseudo_Intellectual (66360) on 11/5/2007 11:13 PM · Permalink · Report
the same thing that distinguishes a vertebrate from it's less bony relatives - a spine. A square one.
BZZT. What you are describing is the "trade paperback" publishing format, one in which many, but not all, graphic novels are released. But thanks for playing!
What distinguishes a graphic novel (there is no such thing as a "graphical novel") from a comic book is the long-form way in which its story unfolds without obvious obeissance to the conventional comic book layout-based plot motivators -- ie, a little cliffhanger at the end of each line, a bigger cliffhanger at the end of each page, a large cliffhanger at the end of each issue... and then the writers trying to figure out where that cliffhanger is leading up to by the time the next issue hits the stands, often ignoring or forgetting earlier story elements in the process. Many graphic novels aren't ever distributed in issue-by-issue episodic format, doing away with the necessities of regular crises -- the plot is allowed to proceed at its own pace.
Comics tell short stories in the short form. Novels tell long stories in a long form. Graphic novels spin stories out more smoothly than one might improvise to an 8-year-old boy asking "and what happened next? which one of them beat the other one up?" every 25 pages, which is the general comic book storytelling mechanism. (Sophisticated graphical storytellers such as Alan Moore are able to keep their eye on the long-term ball while conforming to the episodic conventions, but he is exceptional in his field.)
Unfortunately, since the comics marketers have latched onto the "graphic novel" label as a means of rebranding their juvenile filler as sophisticated literature for mature readers, warranting a steeper price tag, the term has gotten so watered down that it is practically meaningless. So when you see the term "graphic novel" these days, you can gloss it as "a comic book they are trying to get you to pay extra for."
In this case you can gloss it as "a comic book they are using to try to justify the price of a video game." But I can buy a hell of a lot of comics for the price of a video game.
Sciere (930479) on 11/5/2007 11:32 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
It's found a market away from regular comic books as an established and valued genre. I really treasure my copy of Lost Girls. Alex Robinson has also written a lot of witty ones, but Alison Bechdel's Fun Home defines the genre for me, I read it at least twice a year.
Pseudo_Intellectual (66360) on 11/6/2007 1:17 AM · Permalink · Report
It's found a market away from regular comic books
If only it were more clear what you meant by "it" since most things sold under the name "graphic novel" are the same regular comic books, slapped together in bundles of three to six, given a square TPB spine, and given an uppity name as a facelift.
I can't deny the merit and achievements of graphic novels that actually are what they purport to be; we just need a new name for them since the pale imitators have smelled the cash and flooded in, making it difficult to set the silk purses apart from the sow's ears.
DJP Mom (11333) on 11/6/2007 4:05 AM · edited · Permalink · Report
Well, 80% of the graphic novels I see are: Peach Girl, Fruits Basket, Bleach, Train Man, Death Note, Full Metal Alchemist. similar stuff. Some 10% are Batman/Superman/Spiderman type compilations, and the other 10% are titles like Nick Abadzis' graphic novel Laika (just got today), Robot Dreams by Sara Varon, Maus of course, The Tale of One Bad Rat by Bryan Talbot, etc...
Edit -Of course, "Graphic Novel" is the general genre label libraries catalogue all these types under - I imagine that you could further separate out the anime (or is it manga?) and what you are left with is, well, half and half; comics, and graphic literature.
Even More Editing - I don't think I've ever seen anything without a spine calling itself a graphic novel - maybe I should step out of my library and into a bookstore more often ;-)
Pseudo_Intellectual (66360) on 11/6/2007 8:04 AM · Permalink · Report
80% of the graphic novels I see are: Peach Girl, Fruits Basket, Bleach, Train Man, Death Note, Full Metal Alchemist. similar stuff.
I am unfamiliar with any of these titles, but I suspect they are manga albums, something similar to, but I think culturally distinct from, the graphic novel phenomenon (and only finding themselves lumped in again as a marketing trick of sorts.) Are European comics albums like Asterix or Tintin graphic novels? Well, yes and no -- as in, yes, but only when being sold to North Americans.
the other 10% are titles like Nick Abadzis' graphic novel Laika (just got today), Robot Dreams by Sara Varon, Maus of course, The Tale of One Bad Rat by Bryan Talbot, etc...
This sounds like the territory I, the grand arbiter of comics, would qualify as genuine graphic novels.
80% of the graphic novels I see
What the library buys doesn't necessary represent what is released to the general market! (Not so much with my library, which seems to have a soft spot for throwing away huge sums of cash on enormously expensive self-indulgent art books that call themselves graphic novels. I would say that a sketchbook without a narrative is not a graphic novel in the same way as I'd say that a puzzle-slideshow without a narrative is not an adventure game -- sorry, Myst!)
I don't think I've ever seen anything without a spine calling itself a graphic novel
Here's the rub: the genuine product, like Watchmen, Bone, Cerebus, From Hell, Louis Riel, the Dark Knight Returns, Jimmy Corrigan or the ilk... can be sold in the conventional comic book format (as many of them were) and still be graphic novels because their sum demonstrates something narratively more than a pile of disjointed comics in sequence. But they're not necessarily so insecure that they need to proudly brand themselves as graphic novels, setting themselves aside from the kiddie pap. Something that goes out of its way to point out how distinct and superior it is from regular comics is likely compensating for some self-perceived lack -- real graphic novels don't need to advertise, they just reliably deliver the goods to anyone who cares to look inside.
(Libraries will be most likely to purchase things in the trade paperback format as they can be shelved usefully and will definitely hold up better to repeated readings.)
Pseudo_Intellectual (66360) on 11/6/2007 9:27 AM · edited · Permalink · Report
I did say maybe I should step out of my library and into a bookstore more often :-)
Hey, easily over 90% of my comics consumption is courtesy of my local library... maybe the knuckleheads here just aren't paying as close attention to what they're throwing their money at 8)
...with square spines
Yes, well, when the story run is concluded, the overarching "plot arc" can be recompiled into a single TPBvolume supposing the story stays on task and manages to tell itself without getting canceled! A good indication of a work that is a genuine graphic novel is something that's never released on an issue-to-issue basis but is released as a fully formed sprawl into the world... but it's trickier to find a publisher willing to back such a release, especially from an author who's not yet established as a solid draw.
mobiusclimber (235) on 11/6/2007 7:19 PM · Permalink · Report
yes, my favorite graphic novel is the sandman series of books, originally released in comic format. :)
Pseudo_Intellectual (66360) on 11/6/2007 8:27 PM · Permalink · Report
by and large I'd say that Gaiman violates the "obviously making it up as he goes along" rule, only ending stories when he's apparently bored and tired of his own characters, but he's embraced by enough others that I can't really protest without getting lynched.
Shoddyan (15002) on 11/16/2007 10:31 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Pseudo_Intellectual wrote--]From the looks of things there's no such thing as the lowly comic book anymore; marketers have gone to great lengths to distance their mature and sophisticated visual storytelling from the crass juvenilia of comix. If they still sold He-Man figures today, the packages would advertise that each life-like articulated collectible came with a 12-page graphic novel.
Of course, we know better. All the same, I guess I can't object to parroting of the line they're feeding us... but I'd put it in quotes 8) [/Q --end Pseudo_Intellectual wrote--]
According to Scott McCloud at least, it's more a case of the industry maturing and finding out the "comics" label that this type of artform has been wearing since the 1930s does not always fit more serious storytelling in the medium. He argues in some spots that "comic" is not an accurate word to describe the styles of several works and should no longer be used. Of course I think he also admits that he uses the term himself, more out of habit than anything else.
One could make the same argument for "videogames"... especially if we ever start moving into genres and styles of games where "video" is no longer the main focus (I seem to recall another thread mentioning an adventure game where the character is blind). I've always hated the term myself, but I haven't come up with a better word to use either. "Interactive Adventure" brings back horrible memories of the early CD-ROM era for most people ;)