Forums > Game Forums > Deus Ex: Human Revolution > Guess what was outsourced?
Patrick Bregger (301035) on 9/19/2011 6:04 PM · Permalink · Report
Boss battles. What a fucking shame.
Slug Camargo (583) on 9/20/2011 12:05 AM · Permalink · Report
I guess we all choked collectively on our croissants across the globe, when we woke up today to find that horrible piece all over the internets.
I don't know what's more puzzling: That they outsourced a part of a game that should rely in a solid, homogeneous structure; or that they gave it to a bunch of jackasses that openly said they didn't know anything about Deus Ex because they are "shooter people". I hope they never get a job in their lives ever again and also that they all die in a fire.
And what the hell was exactly the job they did anyway? The fights themselves were so straightforward, plain and unimaginative that they would've been coma-inducing if they weren't so annoying. Do they have to pay an external studio to think up a small room with a couple of columns and a ridiculously convenient cache of weapons and ammunition laying around? Because the laziest Quake 2 modder could already come up with that like 10 years ago, and also he did it for free and he was probably 13 years old. And stoned out of his ass.
Jesus Christ, I fucking hate these retards' souls.
Zovni (10504) on 9/22/2011 1:42 AM · Permalink · Report
If I may chime in for a second: Bear in mind that this sort of outsourcing happens all the time. And you can bet your ass that the guys involved have no say in terms of design decisions or gameplay balancing. What I'm saying is that don't be fooled by this myth that "oooh the game was fantastic because Eidos had such attention to detail but they gave the boss fights to a bunch of amateurs and that's why they sucked". Those guys got hired to provide manpower and meet deadlines for turning in code. End of story. If you want to blame someone for the poor direction the boss fights took you should blame Eidos.
Slug Camargo (583) on 9/22/2011 2:38 AM · Permalink · Report
Well, I'll admit I have no idea how the development works (not in big studios anyway), but I still would've thought that a game like Deus Ex kind of requires a team of people that are all aiming in the same direction, so to say --at the very least people that are aware what the hell the are working in (“we don't know squat about Dues Ex cuz we're shooter ppl lololololol” I MEAN COME ON).
At any rate, my question still stands: What did these G.R.I.P. guys do exactly anyway? Because seriously, those fights suck ass, and not only because they ruin the mood in this particular game, they would've sucked just as much ass in the most linear and generic of shooters. It's not just that they don't fit, they seem like the kind of throwaway content hacked together by the least talented, most jaded coder in the company during the last 6 hours before the deadline.
Zovni (10504) on 9/22/2011 2:29 PM · Permalink · Report
Well it would be ideal to have every member of a development team be composed of fans of the franchise they are working on but on these days where development cycles stretch to one or two years and teams are composed of hundreds of people that's just not the case. I think at this point we are beyond the times when we fantasize about games being nurtured with affection on a cocoon of love and happiness and have to face the fact that all AAA games are made in assembly lines by people for whom its just a job. Just like any other industry.
Fun fact: I have a friend that outsources for EA and works on FIFA. He fucking hates FIFA and personally plays Pro Evo. But that's just the way it is.
These GRIP guys got handed the job of coding and implementing sequences that were not decided by them to be stupid, straightforward shooting stuff. I don't care what the guy said in that video about them "implementing their tech" and testing if its fun or not. Those guys had no say in the assets they used, the depth or lack thereof of the sequences, etc. They had no obligation to be Deus Ex superfans as they had no creative responsibilities at all. And please people. Do you actually think the lead designers just hacked off that portion of the game, sent it to a ghost studio and then imported the code five minutes before going gold only to find out that they sucked later? The responsibility for these failings lie on the designers that thought it would be a good idea to have the sucky shooter-only boss fights in the first place (or at all really, I don't remember the Deus Ex games being chock-full of bosses). Not in the poor idiots tasked with coding it.
Really all I got out of this was that it was a pretty shady PR move by Eidos to put out that video, as if to say "Yeah, the parts that sucked? Blame those guys!! Not us!" ... The worst thing about it is that most people seem to buy into this :S
vedder (70822) on 9/22/2011 3:20 PM · Permalink · Report
Judging from the rest of the game, I wouldn't naturally assume that the boss battles in the game were something the designers came up with, as most of the design is purely fan service for fans of the original. And the boss battles so obviously clashed with the general spirit of the game.
Sounds more like a concession they had to make to keep someone high up happy. That would also explain why they were just pasted in. If they were part of the design they would've somehow fit into the story instead of just suddenly being introduced 2 seconds before you had to kill them.
The blame, in any case goes to multiple parties. GRIP for not researching their subject matter more, whoever hired, briefed and acted as external producer for GRIP for not being informed properly about the design of the game, Design and QA for not pointing out the obvious flaws and killing this "darling" (which might not have been possible due to contractual obligations anyway).
Zovni (10504) on 9/22/2011 4:32 PM · Permalink · Report
Agreed in that including them at all was probably a consession dictated by higher ups in the publishing chain. As for the rest I say no. Again, the Grip guys (as many other outsourced, freelancing and generally non-creative personnel involved in the development cycle) are not paid to be creative. I think everyone here sort of thinks they got handed a blank template with some art assets and told to go crazy with boss fights and the results were dull and straightforward because they where "Dumbz shooter ppl" who never heard of Deus Ex but if they had just contributed a little creativity then they would have delivered something cool.
That's just not how this happens. These people are told to deliver AI scripts and crunch code based on fixed assets. And have them ready by monday or no bonus pay. Period. If they are lucky maybe they get to fool around with the enviromental design (ie: build the small box the encounter takes place in), but that's it.
You are not realizing the highly technical responsibilities of these people that have little or no bearing on the overall creative direction. Blaming these guys is like blaming a cameraman in a movie crew for a lackluster action sequence. Its just not what they do.
Slug Camargo (583) on 9/22/2011 6:15 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Zovni wrote--]Agreed in that including them at all was probably a consession dictated by higher ups in the publishing chain. [/Q --end Zovni wrote--] Then we're back to my initial theory on the other thread: That mysterious higher up wanted to get some Metal Gear Solid in my Deus Ex. So, as I said, the Japanese are to blame >:(
BurningStickMan (17916) on 9/20/2011 3:39 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Adzuken wrote--]Huh. I wonder if this is why the end boss was so bizarre and out of place. [/Q --end Adzuken wrote--] Well that depends on what kind of direction they were given.
[Jensen starts his descent into the bowels of the complex.]
BOSS BATTLE - (some allegory that ties into the theme of transhumanism... maybe reference a character from earlier on... we don't care which one - ed.)
[Victorious, Jensen moves into the next room where he is presented with a panel of game-ending buttons]
Slug Camargo (583) on 9/21/2011 6:16 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Adzuken wrote--]Huh. I wonder if this is why the end boss was so bizarre and out of place. [/Q --end Adzuken wrote--] Actually, the last boss battle was probably the only one that felt as a part of the game --at least gameplay wise(*): It was the only one in which I got to apply the gameplay style I had been working on throughout the whole game (i.e.: Sneaky McHackerson) but it was clear that it can also be played head-on lethally.
In any case, I'm gonna repeat that the one moment that felt like the kind of boss battle that actually would fit the game wonderfully was Malik's rescue. More battles similar to that would have been just fantastic.
(*) Though I already argued in its favor thematically as well, and I stand by it.
Unicorn Lynx (181775) on 9/20/2011 3:00 AM · Permalink · Report
Well, what do you know. I wrote in my review that I felt completely different people developed those boss encounters and there could have been a conspiracy there, and now it turns out to be true.
vedder (70822) on 9/24/2011 10:24 AM · edited · Permalink · Report
To me it sounds like they ran into time constraints, outsourced it, didn't get back what they expected, but had not enough time reiterate it often enough to really make it work as they would've wanted it. Then made the decision to keep it in based on QA reports where the boss fights were considered to be based on a different mindset, but still fun in their own way.
That seems like a coherent story and I could definitely see that happening in a big production like this.
St. Martyne (3648) on 10/3/2011 6:08 AM · Permalink · Report
Were the boss battles really so horrible?
I wouldn't say they were great, but still. They're just like regular boss battles in any other game and that's all. Here's the guy - shoot him dead. You can't sneak around or talk to him, that's true. But some augs do prove to be useful. I really liked how I managed to avoid electrical damage during the second boss fight, and the last fight was pretty cool. The first one was alright, and the third one even changes based on your prior decisions.
I really didn't think they were really that horrible.
Unicorn Lynx (181775) on 10/3/2011 9:10 AM · Permalink · Report
I really didn't think they were really that horrible
Hear, hear! I don't think they were horrible gameplay-wise - but they were pretty horrible story-wise, in my opinion. MGS3: Snake Eater had better integration of boss fighting and narrative than this.
St. Martyne (3648) on 10/3/2011 11:32 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Unicorn Lynx wrote--] but they were pretty horrible story-wise [/Q --end Unicorn Lynx wrote--]
I don't get it. You need to do stuff. Some dude doesn't want you to. You kill the dude in a boss fight - you move on. What kind of narrative is supposed to be there?
vedder (70822) on 10/3/2011 12:21 PM · Permalink · Report
The boss characters had zero depth, they just suddenly appear an instant before the boss fight with no foreshadowing at all. Their names aren't even told to the player until after they were dead (in the frickin' loading screens). The idea of boss fights, traditionally is that it's some apex in both story and gameplay.
Story-wise you expect to fight characters introduced in the story as antagonists. Characters that have betrayed you or foiled your plans. Here it's just some dudes that have absolutely no relevance to the story at all.
Gameplay wise boss fights are meant as a final exam. During a game the player slowly learns the skills required to master the game. The increasing difficulty in games is especially tailored so that the player's skills improve. A boss-fight is the final exam, where the difficulty is cranked all the way up so that you have to perform at the top of your learned skills to complete the encounter successfully. In DX3 however you have to resort to skills you HAVEN'T learned (if you play a sneaky character) and thus are suddenly thrown in the deep end of the pool without knowing how to swim... and there are sharks... with laserbeams attached to their heads. This simply throws out every gamedesign standard devised in the last 40 years.
St. Martyne (3648) on 10/3/2011 2:31 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start vedder wrote--]The boss characters had zero depth, they just suddenly appear an instant before the boss fight with no foreshadowing at all. Their names aren't even told to the player until after they were dead (in the frickin' loading screens). The idea of boss fights, traditionally is that it's some apex in both story and gameplay. [/Q --end vedder wrote--]
Well, that's not strictly true. All three appear in the initial lab attack, and again at FEMA facility.
Look, I'm not arguing that those characters couldn't be more fleshed out. Of course, they could.
But that is a separate issue from the boss battles themselves as they appear in the game. And I'm not even trying to defend those. ) They weren't by any means a great and integral part of the game.
Just an amusing distraction. I dunno, like, say, QTE sequence perhaps? Definetely not a final exam approach you're talking about. I played a stealth character and I always tried to have two praxis points available for whatever might come my way. Also, the game dumps a shitload of weaponry on you right before each fight. And there's always a difficulty slider.
Look. I think, boss battles are crap, especially in a Deus Ex game. I just can't get my head around why this particular game is singled out. In my opinion, Human Revolution has much more important problems than a few compulsory firefights.
Unicorn Lynx (181775) on 10/3/2011 3:17 PM · Permalink · Report
In my opinion, Human Revolution has much more important problems than a few compulsory firefights
Which do you think are the more important problems?
Slug Camargo (583) on 10/3/2011 10:57 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q2 --start St. Martyne wrote--] They weren't by any means a great and integral part of the game. Just an amusing distraction. [/Q2 --end St. Martyne wrote--] But the problem is, they weren't even an amusing distraction: You're locked in a small, square room with a couple columns/crates strewn about and some nonsensically convenient weapon caches (I guess the server room of a TV network building is the ideal place to store weapons --IN THE FUTURE!!!), and you just run around frantically like a retard, trying to avoid grenades/electroshocks/rockets while throwing everything you had at the other guy, who will simply "CHAERG!!" in a straight line towards you while firing without reason or rhyme, to the point that you can get the first one to kill himself with his own grenades by simply running around the room.
No mildly reasonable behavior, no attack patterns, no strategy --nothing.
See, it's not just that these boss fights have no place in a Deus Ex game; boss fights this flat and uninspired haven't had a place in any self-respected game at all for, what, 15 years? 20? This is out-and-out bad design at its worst.
Also, this:
[Q --start Unicorn Lynx wrote--] Which do you think are the more important problems? [/Q --end Unicorn Lynx wrote--]
St. Martyne (3648) on 10/5/2011 4:54 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Dr. M. "Schadenfreude" Von Katze wrote--] Which do you think are the more important problems? [/Q --end Dr. M. "Schadenfreude" Von Katze wrote--]
Two hubs. Of which the first one is very tiny and the other one is like a nonsensical maze with little to do and nowhere to explore.
Very little optional stuff. I mean the original Deus Ex had lots of things to discover, lots of different NPCs to talk to. In Human Revolution if it's not a part of ten quests this game has, it doesn't exist.
Interactivity. Pretty much none. You can move these metal crates but not these cardboard ones? Please!
Boring world. I dunno, I read pretty much every e-mail and PAD in the game and they are either filled with painful techno babble or recapping things you know for the empteenth time! An occasional joke about Nigerian royalty is great - but I wanted stories, believable characters and situations. And I got none of that. Just a bunch of stale conference speeches.
And, don't get me wrong I love this game. It's really amazing how many things HR got right, but it feels like Deus Ex "lite" to me. Even Fallout 3 didn't feel that way. I guess it's because F3 completely changed the formula, while HR just diluted it a bit.
Slug Camargo (583) on 10/6/2011 12:31 AM · edited · Permalink · Report
[Q --start St. Martyne wrote--] Two hubs. Of which the first one is very tiny and the other one is like a nonsensical maze with little to do and nowhere to explore. [/Q --end St. Martyne wrote--] Funny, for me this game was the point at which I kind of made my peace with that: It's how modern AAA gaming rolls, and there's nothing to do about it.
You know how it's so commonly said that games like Deus Ex will never happen again? Well, it's literally true. Deus Ex (and the Thief's and the System Shock's and all the good old ones) belongs to a time of perfect balance when the technology allowed to dream big, but not quite so big that developers could lose track of the big picture while putting up the decorations.
What I'm saying is, games today are expected to invest millions in post-effects and texture detail and whatever, and that leaves not much time/resources to devote to the game aspect of the game. Hence, beautifully rendered buildings, but located in tiny cities, of which there are only a handful. It's just how it is, and I don't think it's gonna get any better.
So, like I said, I learned to enjoy the Human Revolutions and Alpha Protocols and Mass Effect 2s for what they are, and I'm a happier man now. At least they're the ones trying something more complex.
[Q --start St. Martyne wrote--]
I read pretty much every e-mail and PAD in the game and they are either filled with painful techno babble or recapping things you know for the empteenth time! An occasional joke about Nigerian royalty is great - but I wanted stories, believable characters and situations.
[/Q --end St. Martyne wrote--]
With that I agree 100%. In fact, I said as much several times in this very forum. I really miss the snobbishly literate aspect of the original (you were reading books inside the game!) as well as its subtle but consistent array of gags and funny references, and I think the world feels a lot more dry without them --especially when, as you mention, what we find instead is a bunch of (I'm sure that very well documented but also) painfully arid techno-cackle.
In my case, I played HR right after two straight replays of Bloodlines, so you can imagine how jarring the contrast of experiences was D:
[Q --start St. Martyne wrote--] And, don't get me wrong I love this game. It's really amazing how many things HR got right, but it feels like Deus Ex "lite" to me. Even Fallout 3 didn't feel that way. I guess it's because F3 completely changed the formula, while HR just diluted it a bit. [/Q --end St. Martyne wrote--] Again, I guess the difference lies in where the developers focused their efforts. Fallout 3 is indeed much more complex and its world is larger and full of stories, but on the flipside (and I say this as a huge Fallout 3 fanboi) the gameplay in Human Revolution is WAY more polished and out-and-out entertainig than Fallout 3. The controls are much more comfortable, the shooting more visceral and the stealth actually works (and amazingly well too).
And let's not even mention the writing and the acting.
St. Martyne (3648) on 10/6/2011 3:45 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Dr. M. "Schadenfreude" Von Katze wrote--] What I'm saying is, games today are expected to invest millions in post-effects and texture detail and whatever, and that leaves not much time/resources to devote to the game aspect of the game. [/Q --end Dr. M. "Schadenfreude" Von Katze wrote--]
Well as you said, New Vegas came jam-packed with quests, locations, characters and so on. I guess, the quality and quantity of content and ambition outweigh polish for me any time.
In my dreams I like to think that it's still possible for a team of eleven like-minded individuals to come together and rekindle the spirit of Looking Glass on a shoestring budget.
It might not look that good, but it will be worth it. Game development is ridiculously overpaid anyway. Just like any other entertainment business.
[Q --start Dr. M. "Schadenfreude" Von Katze wrote--] The controls are much more comfortable, the shooting more visceral and the stealth actually works (and amazingly well too). [/Q --end Dr. M. "Schadenfreude" Von Katze wrote--]
You couldn't possibly name three things I couldn't care less about. )) And stealth without a light meter is meh. I didn't like it in MGS and I wasn't particulary found of it in HR.
[Q --start Dr. M. "Schadenfreude" Von Katze wrote--] And let's not even mention the writing and the acting. [/Q --end Dr. M. "Schadenfreude" Von Katze wrote--]
Did you really enjoy voice acting in HR? I guess it was alright. I really liked Sarif, but the rest of the cast was rather unmemorable. Except for that infamous black informant woman, who is of course memorable for all the wrong reasons.
BurningStickMan (17916) on 10/3/2011 5:03 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start St. Martyne wrote--] Look. I think, boss battles are crap, especially in a Deus Ex game. I just can't get my head around why this particular game is singled out. In my opinion, Human Revolution has much more important problems than a few compulsory firefights. [/Q --end St. Martyne wrote--] I think Alpha Protocol did a worse job with its boss battles, but it did get a pretty hefty drubbing for it also.
Unicorn Lynx (181775) on 10/4/2011 4:31 AM · Permalink · Report
I think Alpha Protocol did a worse job with its boss battles
Really? I think they were much better done in AP. They were nicely fitting story-wise. All the bosses were important plot-related characters, and their levels built up to those encounters. And AP was much less of a stealth game than HR, so these battles didn't break up the gameplay that much. And generally they were pretty cool; I don't know why everyone focus on these battles when AP had other, much more significant flaws.
