Forums > Suggestions > Removing and Replacing Dead Names for Trans Devs
Jay Ingram (236) on 9/22/2021 8:36 PM · Permalink · Report
Hello,
I'm currently working to have a dev's name updated, but the policy seems to be pretty outdated. It feels very unkind to list a dev's dead name in the AKA section when they explicitly don't want that name to be used on or referred to them in any way. While I get that this might be a minor inconvenience for any older credits, I don't believe that inconvenience warrants a policy that, regardless of intent, is very transphobic.
Sciere (930972) on 9/22/2021 8:47 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
This is an encyclopedia website that documents the public record based on publicly available sources. Upon request, a dev profile can receive a setting to prevent the profile from appearing in both the Google and the internal site search. It also makes the name appear abbreviated in credit listings. The only way to see the full name or aka is by going directly to a specific listing, not using any search, and then clicking the abbreviated name. This is a very extensive measure and as far as the site can go so as not to distort the history record.
Kate Rayner (5) on 11/10/2021 7:19 PM · Permalink · Report
Hi, This is Kate Rayner. I am the transgender dev that has requested this change. I work at Microsoft as a Partner, Studio Technical Director for The Coalition and the Gears of War Franchise. I have been in Industry for over 25 years. My recently updated listing is here https://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId,46442/
I would like to implore you to remove the AKA of my old name. It is harmful to me to have it there. I no longer feel mobygames is a site I want a profile on if it deadnames me. I acknowledge I cannot change all credits in past games, and it does make sense to have the AKA for tracking past credits I do not want it listed on my profile so visibly. Mobygames has been used as a site for years to check a dev's profile and history, it is often referred to. I do not want journalists and transphobic trolls, being able to so easily find my old name. It is triggering to me to see it. I have legally changed it.
I see a few options. 1) You remove my old name from the AKA. You keep it hidden internally as a footnote if necessary for the older credits. 2) You delete my account. I would rather it did not exist, then have it publicly deadname me. I will use Linkedin Instead, https://www.linkedin.com/in/kate-j-rayner/
Making it unindexable makes it not a very useful website. I would like kate rayner to be indexable so people can find my profile and when they get to the site to not encounter my old name listed so prominently on my profile.
Sciere (930972) on 11/10/2021 7:40 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
Hi Kate
I've applied the "private / noindex" feature to your profile as described above. While not ideal, with both advantages and disadvantages, this is the default and only option offered to anyone who requests a more private listing regardless of the reason for the request. If you prefer to be listed again in full in the credits and through internal or public search, you can always have it reverted now or in the future.
Note that other encyclopedia websites, such as Wikipedia, use the same approach to listing former names, but do not offer the opportunity to exclude it from both internal and public search nor an abbreviated form in listings.
If you do a search on Google for "Rayner"+"Gears of War", you'll notice that 60% of the first 30 results still list your former name publicly, so MobyGames already does a lot so as not to contribute to that.
Cavalary (11446) on 11/11/2021 2:21 AM · Permalink · Report
sigh
Since I guess only one side is still allowed to say something about the issue itself now, I'll just say again that a database should simply record facts, blind to politics and sensibilities, and in this case treat all name changes the same regardless of reason, current name is main one, past one is an AKA and that's that. Still, if absolutely required by someone needing to make a full break from their past, different profiles could be created, those where the original credits are with the old name are left like that and those where the credited name is the new one are entered as if for a different person. Normally I'd say that's something to be done just for someone in a witness protection program, and if required by a court order, but I guess it could be done upon (adamant) demand, if breaking from past name is worth breaking from past work as well, because you can't have your cake and eat it too (and change history).
Pseudo_Intellectual (66423) on 11/13/2021 8:51 AM · Permalink · Report
The Mobygames community is of course not monolithic on this issue. Some of us, as demonstrated in this thread, feel oddly passionately about maintaining inflexibility in regards to this matter. A different longtime admin recently resigned from the site, feeling that the present compromise was inadequately accommodating. The compromise definitely is in the awkward "pleases nobody" territory, but it's admittedly still more ground than many organizations will cede - a step in the right direction, but only one step taken of many needed.
If a window opens in future to reconsider whether our current policy on the matter suffices, I feel that these links, if approached with an open mind, might advance the conversation:
https://theplosblog.plos.org/2020/10/implementing-name-changes-for-published-transgender-authors/
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02145-3
Though we maintain strict adherence to primary sources, it seems a little odd to reject corrections on these particular grounds when they also come straight from the horse's mouth. If we learned that an accepted credits submission had reproduced a printing error contained in the manual, we would make a note internally to that entry and allow that error to be corrected without being enshrined in the public record. I feel that the former use of a deadname is simply a different variety of error (in some regards a more egregious and dangerous one), one that was made by the developer's well-intentioned parents, but one that I feel we should also allow to be corrected as frictionlessly.
Brenda Brathwaite married John Romero in 2012, but is currently credited here as Brenda Romero for work she did on Wizardry in 1981. Not to suggest that two wrongs make a right, but it seems conspicuously odd to overlook and tolerate the anachronism in one case (well, I am sure that now that I have pointed it out, it will be corrected) but to take a stand for the primacy of the documented historical record in the other. It almost feels at times as though the institutional resistance to accommodation in these matters isn't really about the historical record.
Anyway, I would encourage deadnamed developers to continue giving us hell, and I expect that they will.
MrFlibble (18302) on 11/13/2021 7:19 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Pseudo_Intellectual wrote--]Brenda Brathwaite married John Romero in 2012, but is currently credited here as Brenda Romero for work she did on Wizardry in 1981. Not to suggest that two wrongs make a right, but it seems conspicuously odd to overlook and tolerate the anachronism in one case (well, I am sure that now that I have pointed it out, it will be corrected) but to take a stand for the primacy of the documented historical record in the other. It almost feels at times as though the institutional resistance to accommodation in these matters isn't really about the historical record. [/Q --end Pseudo_Intellectual wrote--] That's a good example!
I have a practical question though. MobyGames is not an exhaustive database as there are still loads of games that are not yet documented. Suppose someone finds and documents an old game by a trans dev with the dead name in the credits, without any knowledge that there is any connection (and if AKAs are removed everywhere it might not be possible to establish one at all without prior knowledge). Wouldn't that result in a "ghost" entry for what is technically a non-existing person? Do we then need to track down such cases and merge that entry with the main entry of said developer? Or is it up to the developer themselves to decide if they want the merge or not (provided that they learn about it in the first place)? Can they demand that the name is removed altogether? etc.
On paper it should not be a super big issue, as we already have quite a lot of duplicate dev entries thanks to spelling variations, shortened names and nicknames being used in the credits (or simply insufficiently diligent research on the contributors' part). But this particular case appears to introduce an ethical dimension because using the dead name is viewed as hurtful?
Havoc Crow (29904) on 11/14/2021 11:17 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q]Brenda Brathwaite married John Romero in 2012, but is currently credited here as Brenda Romero for work she did on Wizardry in 1981. Not to suggest that two wrongs make a right, but it seems conspicuously odd to overlook and tolerate the anachronism in one case (well, I am sure that now that I have pointed it out, it will be corrected) but to take a stand for the primacy of the documented historical record in the other.[/Q]
Are you talking here about the AKA's on the dev's profile page, or the "pseudonyms" (e.g. "Brenda Romero (as Brenda Brathwaite)" in each game's individual credit listings? I think they got conflated in your post somewhere along the way. (As someone else has noted, Brenda Romero does have all her former names listed on her page, though we've not been the best about adding the historically correct names to her credit listings -- but I'd wager that is just typical MobyGames inertia, backlogged as we are with thousands of other niggling errors, and not a deliberate choice to "overlook and tolerate".)
MrFlibble (18302) on 11/14/2021 4:07 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start JudgeDeadd wrote--] Are you talking here about the AKA's on the dev's profile page, or the "pseudonyms" (e.g. "Brenda Romero (as Brenda Brathwaite)" in each game's individual credit listings? I think they got conflated in your post somewhere along the way. [/Q --end JudgeDeadd wrote--] I just checked Wizardry 1 credits and they simply say Brenda Romero. I think the database works the way that it refers to a dev by internal ID, and displays whatever name is currently attached to that ID (while AKAs are a simple reference list on the dev page).
If you wanted to fix the anachronism in the Wizardry credits, I guess you'd need to manually file a correction to change the name to "Brenda Romero (credited as Brenda Brathwaite)" or some such. I don't think there's a way to automatically update all such entries.
But the problem still stands in that name changes like this aren't usually objected to by the persons named, while deadnaming is. From what I understand, the intention is to completely erase the dead name from existence and records, the same way as you would correct an error. The problem of course being that if a dev has been credited in many published games under the dead name, there's a lot of errors of this kind, and you cannot recall all copies of a game to replace them, or something like that.
Cavalary (11446) on 11/14/2021 7:50 PM · Permalink · Report
... And that intention should be shrugged off completely by anyone in any way interested in maintaining records.
But hm, that's quite an issue with the database then, if those credits aren't automatically updated in the manner you described, listing the actual name listed in the credits alongside the current one if the listed name changes to the current one automatically.
Terok Nor (42232) on 11/14/2021 8:45 PM · Permalink · Report
No one is talking about removing this information completely. It should simply be hidden on a developer profile by request. This has been talked about in the past and would probably take an hour of coding, maximum.
And people, try to have some empathy. Especially during Transgender Awareness Week, come on.
Cavalary (11446) on 11/16/2021 1:50 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Plokite_Wolf wrote--] Empathy towards what exactly? Removal of correct information on someone's whim? [/Q --end Plokite_Wolf wrote--] Precisely, but good luck arguing for a reasonable stance anymore...
And, you know, after divorcing her abusive husband and returning to her maiden name (what a term, and what a stupid practice, this changing of name for marriage, as if even in this day and age one still takes ownership of the other... but I digress), a woman may find it hurtful to be reminded of her married name. Or people may change names to try to break away from traumatic childhoods, maybe at the hands of their parents, or after escaping some cult, or after changing their ways and leaving behind a life of crime, or a gang, or an addiction. Why would being trans require special consideration over those other reasons, and why would any of them have any relevance in a database that should just keep records regardless of anything of the sort?
Edwin Drost (9618) on 11/16/2021 10:45 AM · edited · Permalink · Report
Oh yeah. For being a Croat you are being bullied, beaten and ridiculed all the time at home, school, work, etc until you may only see one way out through suicide, right? Oh wait.
https://www.hrc.org/news/new-study-reveals-shocking-rates-of-attempted-suicide-among-trans-adolescen
Plok (216987) on 11/16/2021 11:03 AM · edited · Permalink · Report
If I were a Croat in Serbia, it would very likely be the case, yes.
People go through depression and suicidal tendencies for a strongly varied amount of reasons. Your propaganda sources du jour only lampshade one of them, but that is not reason enough for special treatment. Get back into the queue line with the rest of us.
Edwin Drost (9618) on 11/16/2021 1:18 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
Seriously? We are talking about people who are beaten, ridiculed, bullied at SCHOOL and everywhere else JUST for being trans or gay, etc. Even by THEIR OWN family. And even sentenced to death for this in some countries. NOT because some poor Croatian schmuck that walks around in Serbia and got beaten for that.
Even if there is a varied causes of suicide, one of the biggest factors IS repeatedly being bullied. Non stop. Day in day out. At school or work and even their family would not help them. (or in this case even doing the same thing) Would not that make you depressed or feeling unwanted until you do not know a way out and commit suicide? Kids, teenagers, adults have to deal with this every day. Bullied by others for cruel and childish reasons. It happens a lot under our noses and yet people look the other way or talk about it as if it is nothing. Out of ignorace, narrow mindness or just doing cowardly to prevent that it happen to them. Until it someone you know or actually care about. And then it is too late. If you know what I mean.
PS: sorry. English is not my first language.
Havoc Crow (29904) on 11/16/2021 2:48 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
I'm honestly thinking this discussion has gone way off the subject of "videogame database policies", and I don't see it going anywhere constructive, either...
WONDERăȘăăł (16778) on 11/16/2021 4:49 PM · Permalink · Report
This one is quite off-the-rails...
Edwin Drost (9618) on 11/16/2021 5:25 PM · Permalink · Report
I know. It was getting a bit far indeed. My apologies for all this. I am not like this, but this just happened. Sorry.
Edwin Drost (9618) on 11/16/2021 5:19 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
Regurgitating? Not really.
I could have done without it and explained it all to you in exact precise words. But for my feeling (and for certain reason I am feeling very uncertain about it today) my English is not good enough and this article stated this in good English and was very clear.
Favorite? eye roll There are plenty enough stories of people (on social media, etc.) who tried to commit suicide or of parents whose child died for these reasons. Even an ex of mine was looked down upon, ridiculed by others because she likes girls. (but this is not about us)
Maybe you should go and actually read them. There are too many and heart breaking. That is for sure. Should I even have to point out the fact that they have been persecuted, ridiculed and murdered along with others over the centuries? We are now in the 21st century and not in the 30's/40's or 50's anymore and yet it keeps happening. If you know what I mean.
And yes. The problem of a Croatian schmuck getting beat up just for going to Serbia is pale in comparison. But sarcasm doesn't convey very well in written form, right? Downplaying severe problems is NEVER a good idea.
What's my point? I'm pretty sure that I was pretty clear about it. If not. Oh well.
Now that everything has been said by me we all should let common sense and most of all RESPECT prevail before it is getting out of hand. Emotions can turn up high for this. (Is that even the right saying?)
Me? I am letting you all to have this discussion and get back to writing of that descriptions of these games while having a ef writers block as big as this planet.
I really need to do that and not getting distracted by a lot of other things. (as usual) And stopping right now. because I can be very very sarcastic, cynical and all if I do not feel that great.
Sorry for that. And for the rant. You do not need to answer to it. If you know what I mean.
Yes, Mobygames documents credits for historical records. But how far are you willing to go to do this?
Plok (216987) on 11/16/2021 5:55 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Edwin Drost wrote--] There are plenty enough stories of people (on social media, etc.) who tried to commit suicide or of parents whose child died for these reasons. Even an ex of mine was looked down upon, ridiculed by others because she likes girls. (but this is not about us) [/Q --end Edwin Drost wrote--]
So what? People committing suicide over their personal experiences in work or social situations does not mean we need to end all labour and social matters, why would this be treated differently? Just because select westerners raise a stink about it (because they're pressured to do so) and the rest of the world just wants them to get real problems and exit the insane information/opinion reverbs they've found themselves in?
[Q --start Edwin Drost wrote--] And yes. The problem of a Croatian schmuck getting beat up just for going to Serbia is pale in comparison. [/Q --end Edwin Drost wrote--]
Yeah, centuries-old multiethnic tensions pale to select few thin-skinned people being upset by factual reporting. I'm sure.
[Q --start Edwin Drost wrote--] Now that everything has been said by me we all should let common sense and most of all RESPECT prevail before it is getting out of hand. Emotions can turn up high for this. (Is that even the right saying?) [/Q --end Edwin Drost wrote--]
Emotions are all you have going anyway. Emotions are irrelevant. Facts matter, and if you don't like that, you have no place in fact-based communities.
[Q --start Edwin Drost wrote--] I really need to do that and not getting distracted by a lot of other things. [/Q --end Edwin Drost wrote--]
I'll remember this quote when you change to white-knighting blindly for the PC army's next problem of the week without a grain of self-awareness.
[Q --start Edwin Drost wrote--] Yes, Mobygames documents credits for historical records. But how far are you willing to go to do this? [/Q --end Edwin Drost wrote--] What is this ridiculous question even supposed to mean? :D
WONDERăȘăăł (16778) on 11/16/2021 6:32 PM · Permalink · Report
Emotions can turn up high for this. (Is that even the right saying?)
Yup! As a native English speaker - that phrase sounds correct and is used.
Edwin Drost (9618) on 11/16/2021 6:34 PM · Permalink · Report
Oh. it is? Thank you.
WONDERăȘăăł (16778) on 11/16/2021 8:00 PM · Permalink · Report
The other way to phrase it in English would be, "Emotions can run high" instead of " Emotions can turn up high". Either works though! đđ
WONDERăȘăăł (16778) on 11/16/2021 6:54 PM · Permalink · Report
To me, this is the most sensible take here.
There are loads of horrible, terrible stories and circumstances people find themselves over time and I don't want to deny anyone the realness of those experiences. That said, I can't find it in me for any of those examples to justify changing historical records and to intentionally misinform (and knowingly add inaccurate data into the database).
I'm not particularly informed on the nuanced and tricky subject that is deadnaming, but I do not see how it differs from any one of the examples you (Cavalary) provided or even what I can come up with on my own.
Now I do think some of the other ideas put forth could work as a compromise, but I don't see anyone scrubbing and changing the record for the original reason specified (deadnaming). Which I know sucks emotionally, but I see that as part of the gig. Even a name change (unrelated to a gender change/transition) because you now want to go as John or Jane Doe is incredibly cumbersome and never easy to explain. But that's just the nature of it. You change your name where you can but historical records, criminal records, court records, and many, many more would all stand firm in having it remain as-is.
I don't see it any different than that, but I'd love to be better informed and hear constructive ideas - even if nothing changes. I do think some compassion could go a long way, even if we stand steady in the stance of "absolutely not". We could say it with more sensitivity and understanding of their request, and in this case - their personal struggles.
Just my basic-bitch, white dude 2 cents.
Havoc Crow (29904) on 11/15/2021 7:59 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Terok Nor wrote--]No one is talking about removing this information completely. It should simply be hidden on a developer profile by request. This has been talked about in the past and would probably take an hour of coding, maximum. [/Q --end Terok Nor wrote--] Yeah, Pseudo_Intellectual's post did confuse me as to what exactly we were talking about.