Forums > Game Forums > Call of Duty: World at War > The way Soviets are shown
POMAH (66430) on 7/17/2009 11:54 AM · edited · Permalink · Report
I've posted the message to the one of the reviewers (Thek) based on his review:
" Hi Thek!
I've read your review in mobygames describing the Soviets were very brutal during their march over Europe and your agreement with the way Soviets were shown in the "Call of Duty: World at War" game.
I may say they you are not completely right. You've meant 20 millions of German casualties (but maybe in real such quantity should be divided by 2 - just Read wikipedia - Axis dead: approximately 11 million; Allied dead: about 61 million), but German and Japanese (or Axis) casualties were mostly the casualties of War, not the peaceful people (excluding Hiroshima and Nagasaki). I may say (and it is a true) that my two Grandfathers were on the German's territory, and one of them even lived in German villages near Leipzig and near Drezden for a while with his platoon during and some time after World War II. They've shared foods with German's families lived there and learned much of their culture during this time and he frequently remembered them and described them to me, pointing out how I should live. But my other Grandfather can't even hear German language, he hated Germans since the War. But he also considered that not all Germans were Nazists, who executed the people in inhuman way, many Germans suffered Nazism as much as other people do. So, please be careful with your decisions on the way the World War has passed.
Concerning your words that many Germans fled to West Germany, I may say that most bloody battlefields were in the East Germany as well as in the East of Europe (Russia, Poland, Ukraine, Belarus, Hungary, Czech, etc.). What famous battle in the West Germany you may remember? The people fled to the fields not touched by the war to advance their livings. That's their reason. Destructed East with many cities lied in ruins were reanimated and revitalized by Soviets in the way they may perform it. Look at these cities now: Kharkov, Kiev, Brest, Smolensk, Kursk, Volgograd (Stalingrad), St. Petersburgh(Leningrad), Moscow, Drezden, Leipzig, Prague, Krakow, Poznan, Warsaw, Budapest, Berlin, etc.
If you really want to see what was done in the World War II you may play in "Velvet Assassin" game. The French village is shown there, but I may say that most of the villages in former U.S.S.R were annihilated and people either were burnt in pits or transferred in Germany to work on the plants or to be a persons for brutal experiments.
Just do not vindicate Nazism and Fascism. They've brought the Hell to the Earth, and glory should be given to all the people who fought with it.
Thanks. "
Who does want to add?
Slug Camargo (583) on 7/17/2009 11:29 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start POMAH wrote--] If you really want to see what was done in the World War II you may play in "Velvet Assassin" game. [/Q --end POMAH wrote--] ... just be sure you rent/borrow/pirate/steal it, don't buy it because it sucks ass =(
Mobygamesisreanimated (11069) on 7/18/2009 12:32 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start POMAH wrote--] If you really want to see what was done in the World War II you may play in "Velvet Assassin" game. [/Q --end POMAH wrote--] That shit should be taught in schools!!1!
Indra was here (20755) on 7/19/2009 3:42 AM · Permalink · Report
Odd. Most Soviet soldiers during that time lacked the discipline of professional soldiers compared to the Nazi's. Paramilitary mentality often ignores rules of engagement (not like there are any witnesses who are going to complain :p).
Though in terms of actual brutality. The Japs make the Nazi's and Soviets look like altar boys.
Big John WV (26954) on 7/19/2009 4:03 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Indra Depari of 'da Clan Depari wrote--]Though in terms of actual brutality. The Japs make the Nazi's and Soviets look like altar boys. [/Q --end Indra Depari of 'da Clan Depari wrote--]
True, they were very brutal, but still they didn't try to systematically wipe out an entire culture (i.e. the Nazis) and the Soviets were brutal in their own right since they were untrained. Each and every culture and civilization at one point in time as been brutal to those around them, the Romans, England (through the Scots and Ireland's point of view at least), the Spaniards, The Mongols, The Americans, South America (mostly Columbia with the drug wars) including Mexico with their war. Every culture at one point in time going back to when man or monkey first learned how to walk and use tools has shown the capability to become monsters, sadly it's just human nature to be so violent.
Pseudo_Intellectual (66362) on 7/19/2009 5:07 AM · Permalink · Report
If I never hear the phrase "human nature" again, it'll be too soon. Surely we can agree that disparate cultures all over the world have managed to mess up big time without it boiling down to a fatal flaw within each of us. If anything, I think it could be chalked up to the alienating, dehumanizing nature of big bureaucratic imperialist systems. Humanity nature, if you will 8)
St. Martyne (3648) on 7/19/2009 5:48 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Big John WV wrote--] Sadly it's just human nature to be so violent. [/Q --end Big John WV wrote--]
Sadly, it is also in human nature to be ignorant and plain stupid. Unfortunately, I don't possess even the fracture of Roman's patience. Thus my statement is quite brief.
I do not know how fucked up one's mind must be to even suggest the comparison between the magnitudes of Nazi and Soviet crimes against the humanity during WWII.
I don't deny the atrocious deeds committed by men, oversaturated with the justness and righteousness of their case (which, in all earnest, was just and righteous). But what kind of leap of logic does it take to consider them on even comparable level to the systematic, methodical, calculated and terrifyingly bureaucratic approach with which the Nazis exterminated whole villages, families and towns?
Taking the alleged "brutality" of the Soviet soldiers out of context of the Nazi "input" in the events of those days is an extremely grave mistake to make.
Indra was here (20755) on 7/19/2009 9:14 AM · edited · Permalink · Report
Depends whether or not you want to lump in all Nazi's as one. I wouldn't say the Nazi's are brutal compared to the Soviets or Japs. I would say that the SS in particular are totally psychotic, probably even more so than Adolf. The SS would probably make the Soviets and Japs looks like altar boys.
The Jews will get over it. The holocaust is pale in comparison to the atrocities of their almighty God as a form of punishment. Poor blokes. But regardless, one must also identify the "exposure level" of evil from a political perspective.
The Nazi's systematically tried to eradicate an entire race, which happens to be in Europe (so you can already imagine the media coverage), while basically leaving the other races alone (except in relation to Jews or rebellion). The Japanese tried to systematically enslave the whole of Asia, not as equals. Which is ironic, since their jargon to Asian countries was as a "fellow Asian brother and liberator." The Soviets, well they seemed to prefer to shoot their own soldiers than the Nazi's. :p
Anyone ever seen many movies on Soviet brutality or Japanese brutality? Probably not. Why not? Are the Nazi's more evil/brutal/etc. than the Soviets or Japs? Of course. Why? Is it because of the holocaust? Not entirely. More due to better media coverage.
That's what separates the sheep (read=subject to political hegemony) and intellectuals.
St. Martyne (3648) on 7/19/2009 11:23 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Indra Depari of 'da Clan Depari wrote--]Not entirely. More due to better media coverage.
That's what separates the sheep (read=subject to political hegemony) and intellectuals. [/Q --end Indra Depari of 'da Clan Depari wrote--]
I can't believe I'm really reading this. You don't have a single idea about the war here, do you? For you, perhaps, war in Europe is indeed something that happened only on a telly, leaving you to conjuring whatever fantasies about Soviet systematically soldiers shooting each other or other such sarcastic nonsense as much as you wish.
But, do you realize that I live in a town, which was ACTUALLY occupied by Nazi in 1941? Do you realize, that I can't possibly go to a single public place in my town with encountering a memorial plague with long lists of names, not soldiers, civilians murdered by the NAZI, SS or otherwise? And my town isn't even a regional centre! Over 50 thousands of civilian population did not survive the occupation! Do you realize that my own grandfather, twelve at that time, has witnessed all that, including his own two best mates shot in a head for taking a couple of sips from some Nazi officer's barrel of water? Nearly 80% of my hometown was set on fire during their retreat, with women and children locked inside their house. Do you realize that my other grandfather and the whole family of my grandmother (10 persons in total) were separated from each other and sent to concentration camps and only five of them survived? They weren't even remotely looking like Jews!
I don't need to watch a single movie, read a single book to separate the right from wrong, the truth from media propaganda. The war is embedded into my DNA. The accounts are right here in the open. So, while you pride yourself on the account of your obviously superior intellectual musings, I will sheepishly continue to respect people who gave up their lives and dignities for me to be free and alive.
I don't presume to know anything on the occupation of Indonesia. Please don't insult mine and your own intelligence by presuming to realize the true nature of things you obviously know squat about.
Indra was here (20755) on 7/20/2009 12:32 AM · edited · Permalink · Report
Hehe I do love stirring things up. Especially since most of my family was involved in military service, either fighting the Dutch, the Japs, the commies, all identifying them at the "greater evil," my only concern was why we got conquered in the first place. Even my personal involvement in Indonesia's 1998 student revolution was quite odd. I never quite fully understood why I was dodging bullets and running away from panzers in the first place. The fight against the greater evil. Not quite sure what evil that actually was.
Growing up, the political indoctrination in my country required us to hate the Dutch, capitalists (and if your Muslim; Christians and Jews) without question. Not so much hatred towards the Japs, which is quite odd, since the Japanese did more damage in 3 years than the Dutch did 300 years, so so they say.
The most infamous warlord in history? Genghis Khan. Killed around 1/3 of the population of China and Russia (no wonder they don't like foreigners that much). Now we're creating games with his name.
Then one day I stopped and started thinking. This political cycle is getting on my nerves. To much bias on either side, when come to think of it, none of us were really "there" in the first place, which is quite alarming since we dare vouch for it to be true. Hell, can't even remember half the things I did yesterday, much less what happened in 1945.
Another 100 years (depending on the strength of hegemony), we'll be making games with Adolf as the main protagonist. Does one even wonder why?
Baa.
Indra was here (20755) on 7/20/2009 8:59 AM · Permalink · Report
Sorry mate. Birthdays tend to get me a bit...edgy.
Big John WV (26954) on 7/19/2009 9:25 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Indra Depari of 'da Clan Depari wrote--]The Nazi's systematically tried to eradicate an entire race, which happens to be in Europe (so you can already imagine the media coverage), while basically leaving the other races alone (except in relation to Jews or rebellion). The Japanese tried to systematically enslave the whole of Asia, not as equals.[/Q --end Indra Depari of 'da Clan Depari wrote--]
I've always wondered since Germany and Japan were allies (so was Italy, but they were major contenders compared to these two) if the war had changed for the worse, such as America not entering when they did or if England fell early on, since these two countries were getting so advanced in technology at the time if they decided to turn on each other. I think it could have been the most brutal yet with two nations willing to exterminate anybody and everybody that got in their way. I've always wondered if the Messerschmitt Me 262 was implemented early in the war or if Japan developed the A-bomb first how it would have drastically changed the course of history.
Donatello (466) on 7/19/2009 3:28 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
Jesus Christ, reading this thread is like reading a Russian history textbook.
I have to agree with Indra, however, that the brainwashing by the media on Nazis has got too many people under its influence. Maybe I've got the repressions of Soviet regime in my DNA as well, so does that mean I have the upper hand in deciding who's the most evil?
St. Martyne (3648) on 7/19/2009 4:14 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Donatello wrote--] Maybe I've got the repressions of Soviet regime in my DNA as well, so does that mean I have the upper hand in deciding who's the most evil? [/Q --end Donatello wrote--]
Look, I'm not trying to whitewash the Moscow politics in the starting years of the war or the aftermath, including the Finnish war and annexing of Estonia, German divide and so on.
But, do you really believe that German forces would have brought peace and prosperity to Estonia? The crime of Nazi regime against the world is exceptional, it just can't be compared to whatever Imperial aspirations either Soviet Union or Russian Federation might have.
â- (1623) on 7/19/2009 4:33 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
But, do you really believe that German forces would have brought peace and prosperity to Estonia?
Choosing between Nazi occupation and Soviet occupation seems like choosing between hanging and drowning. I agree with Donatello here, trying to apply some artificial "evil scale" is fairly pointless. I doubt that the average KZ camp inmate would've felt better if he'd been transferred to a Soviet GULAG camp...
Pseudo_Intellectual (66362) on 7/19/2009 5:23 PM · Permalink · Report
I doubt that the average KZ camp inmate would've felt better if he'd been transferred to a Soviet GULAG camp...
An anecdote is brought to mind of a river on the border between the two powers during the nonagression pact days, experiencing refugees smuggling themselves across both ways, hoping things would be better on the other side since they couldn't possibly be worse.
Most of the horrors of Stalinism we know of unfolded over a period of years and decades, while the Nazi's horrors were more rushed, packed into a briefer timespan. (Then there is the horrifyingly depicted Soviet advance into Central Europe, when years of what the Nazis did to the USSR were turned back on them in a matter of weeks and days.)
I can't weigh in much further without coming across as glib, like Indra living in a country that never felt the heels of these particular boots. But I can respond to a couple of his comments -- the Jews may get over it, but Israel shows no sign of doing so (of course, what will it take for them to not feel like they are surrounded by neighbours who want to push them into the sea for lack of gas chambers?) Also the typical note that they were not the only group on the Nazi hit-list -- it was bad times for Gypsies, homosexuals and communists also, among others.
Indra was here (20755) on 7/20/2009 12:44 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Ash Ligast II wrote--]Choosing between Nazi occupation and Soviet occupation seems like choosing between hanging and drowning. I agree with Donatello here, trying to apply some artificial "evil scale" is fairly pointless. I doubt that the average KZ camp inmate would've felt better if he'd been transferred to a Soviet GULAG camp... [/Q --end Ash Ligast II wrote--] Aye. Sucks either way. Being an allied POW however.
The Fabulous King (1332) on 7/23/2009 12:44 AM · edited · Permalink · Report
I like how we eastern europeians keep reinforcing our stereotype of not getting over the world war II. I admit, this is something that the estonians do too - with the difference that you can replace nazi atrocities with soviet atrocities.
I thought the Soviets weren't portrayed negatively at all. Call of Duty did this "human perspective" thing. I really enjoyed the Soviet levels - they had this gothic epic feel to them.
I can't unfortunately offer an estonian perspective, because I'm not really typical estonian. I find terms like "fatherland", "patriotism" and the whole flag-waving and national victory days - completely un-finno-ugric and an unfortunate germanic accident we adopted into our identity when everyone was doing romantical nationalism back in 19th century. So World War II doesn't affect me personally (though my grandfather* had to hide for 10 years in the forest, because he was a police officer in the first estonian republic, and the Soviet powers didn't like those either. They wanted to eradicate every living memory of pre-war government - fortunately Stalin died and a more humane approach (amnesty) was chosen), because I just don't connect with this. So much for DNA. It's learned, not inherited by genes. I'd rather yoik with my fellow Sami and leave the Chudes (the people that later divided into estonians and finns) to their Chudic business of unfortunate capitalism and perverted way of life.
Not that the Sami are without problems... yoik is just an awesome thing.
*my other grandfather was a soviet official
Btw, this thread does feel like a russian history book. Estonians don't view World War II this mythically (even though the official version is mythical, just not this mythical). But Eastern Europeia generally is just a sad bunch really.
Somebody bring me Sisko! (8) on 7/23/2009 5:20 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Ash Ligast II wrote--]I agree with Donatello here, trying to apply some artificial "evil scale" is fairly pointless.[/Q --end Ash Ligast II wrote--]
Given the nature of the OP, yes. Given serious conflict research studies? No. Post-traumatic stress is an excellent example. Fire-bombing a city from 15k ft. is a bit different for the perpetrator(s) than marching in and doing it Nanjing-style.