Forums > Game Forums > System Shock 2 > Can't quite understand what's so great here...
Unicorn Lynx (181775) on 6/2/2007 9:17 AM · Permalink · Report
Playing it, and still trying hard to understand why it is considered a masterpiece by so many people. Okay, it has atmosphere. Nice RPG angle. Great sounds. But... what's the reason to play it? I know it sounds stupid, but what is exactly the point here? So far, it's wandering around a haunted space ship, hunting for access cards, nanites, and batteries, reading e-mails and fighting creepy guys. There are no characters at all and the scenario is very repetitive. Also, I don't think it has an interesting style, it's just your typical cyberpunk. Is it going to be like that till the end? No one to talk to, nothing but corridors and rooms and computers? I got bored very quickly. Maybe I'm missing something there... so I'd like to be enlightened.
For the record, I tried playing the first one and I had the same feeling.
xroox (3895) on 6/2/2007 12:15 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
I found the game boring as well. Creepy and scary - Yes. But still somehow... dull. I thought the levels were generally uninspired and lacking in variety (One exception being the creatively designed Hydroponics deck), the story is basically a re-hash of System Shock 1 and the game has various balancing issues as well (Some weapon classes are next to useless, as are some skills).
Personally, I love System Shock 1. The games may seem rather similar but, for me, System Shock 2 failed to capture the essence of the original. System Shock 1 had much more interesting and complex level designs. The story was original and so was the way it was told. The log-files of dead crew members told tales of personal struggle, and you could follow individuals' desperate attempts to survive. This was still the same in the second game, but by that time, we had basically heard it all before.
In the end, it's hard to say exactly why System Shock 2 is an unsatisfying experience. It has the same basic gameplay as other Looking Glass/Ion Storm games which I love (Deus Ex, Thief...). Those games drew me onwards with absolutely compelling gameplay, but System Shock 2 did not.
Although it did the same basic things, it simply failed to engage me. I was scared and bored at the same time, which is weird!
The point of playing the game, then? To have fun. And if you're not having fun, then it means the game is just not working for you, for whatever reason. System Shock 2 is one of those strange cases where I find myself disappointed by a game that everyone else seems to love. And it can be hard to pin down exactly why that is. And that's confusing! ;)
Any more responses?
Unicorn Lynx (181775) on 6/2/2007 4:22 PM · Permalink · Report
Thanks for your reply, Sam. I'll try the first System Shock again, maybe I'll like it more this time around...
Zovni (10504) on 6/3/2007 7:04 AM · Permalink · Report
I don't know man, seems to me like you are taking the wrong approach yet again in this game by, you know... playing it :). If you want to add SS to your gaming literacy card be my guest, but I'd dare say this is another one of those games that are just not for you, so why even bother playing it?
The Fabulous King (1332) on 6/3/2007 3:40 PM · Permalink · Report
Well I thought it was a great atmospheric game. Its one of those games that are just great and fun to... play. And its actually quite deep of a game... in story contents also.
Unicorn Lynx (181775) on 6/3/2007 4:47 PM · Permalink · Report
Because it is loved mostly by people who have similar taste in games as mine, because I love the FPS/RPG concept, because the atmosphere is indeed great... there were many reasons for me to try it. I was sure I was going to love it. But it doesn't work. I'm just bored. Maybe something is wrong with my playing style...
The Fabulous King (1332) on 6/10/2007 7:26 AM · Permalink · Report
To Oleg: Maybe you`re just too overplayed for this game... too experienced. It happens to all of us.
Slug Camargo (583) on 6/10/2007 5:41 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Unicorn B. Lynx wrote--]Playing it, and still trying hard to understand why it is considered a masterpiece by so many people. [/Q --end Unicorn B. Lynx wrote--] I gotta say I felt the same way as you, and for a while I sort of thought something was wrong with me. Then I read this review. It was sort of enlightening.
Shoddyan (15004) on 6/10/2007 8:32 AM · edited · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Dr. Von Katze wrote--] [Q2 --start Unicorn B. Lynx wrote--]Playing it, and still trying hard to understand why it is considered a masterpiece by so many people. [/Q2 --end Unicorn B. Lynx wrote--] I gotta say I felt the same way as you, and for a while I sort of thought something was wrong with me. Then I read this review. It was sort of enlightening. [/Q --end Dr. Von Katze wrote--]
I highly enjoyed that review. Bear in mind, I still like playing System Shock 2 (weee!), but I have to agree with the points raised there. Upon reflection, I merely "put up" with both the stat system (works somewhat better in Deus Ex, which you'll notice also looks similar to SS2 in some ways (check out that inventory system!)) and my weapons breaking. And I have to admit... the amount of fun I was having dropped way down towards the end of the game.
Responsible Pyromaniac on 6/10/2007 10:50 AM · Permalink · Report
This review exemplifies different tastes. I loved many of the features that he didnt. I loved the RPG system. I loved the breaking guns. it kept me very careful and very scared. I didnt want to see an enemy. I did what it took to survive. the game was awesome to me. to him obviously its crap.
so someone needs to make more games he hates so I have something to play.
Zovni (10504) on 6/11/2007 1:47 AM · Permalink · Report
Quite frankly I felt that review was pretty inmature and just flat-out retarded, and that's saying something coming from me! I agree with responsible pyro for instance, the weapon degradation and monster-respawning are elements crucial to the survival-horror aspect of the game, making half-assed jokes about it is missing the point entirely.
As for you Oleg, that's what its all about: do those mechanics annoy you? Do you long for less parts of sneaking through dark corridors and more dialogue-heavy sub-plots, well-rounded characters and stuff like that? System Shock is just not that kind of game, so yes, to you this is going to be a pretty boring game, you said it yourself, and believe me, to a lot of people it is a very exciting experience to explore a solitary half-dead space station on your own.
Sorry if I seem to be going into a defensive mode here but I already see the 20-page long review filled with opera and classical music references looming in the distance that basically says that the game sucks because it doesn't have a strong story and it has only 2 characters :S I personally think SS2 has its shortcomings and its definetly inferior to the original, but its still a game of undeniable quality.
Slug Camargo (583) on 6/11/2007 3:56 AM · edited · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Zovni wrote--]Quite frankly I felt that review was pretty inmature and just flat-out retarded, and that's saying something coming from me! [/Q --end Zovni wrote--] If there's ever been a person on Earth that I would've never expected having to explain this, it was precisely you; but... Man, that's a comedy website :P
Now, seriously, that weapon degradation thing sounds just stupid. I mean, I'm sure it makes the game challenging, but so would having to play blindfolded, and I wouldn't call that a good feature. There are about seven hundred thousand ways of making you feel underpowered and still making the gameplay feel fair. This is like Resident Evil 4 not letting you make a stupid sidestep and pretending it's a challenging feature. Or Silent Hill 2 having Maria stand in the way like a moron all the time so you bash her dead when you're trying to protect her. Or Metal Gear Solid 2's camera not letting you see an enemy that's standing right in front of you until you bump into him. Retarded, retarded, and retarded.
Shoddyan (15004) on 6/11/2007 5:43 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Dr. Von Katze wrote--] Now, seriously, that weapon degradation thing sounds just stupid. I mean, I'm sure it makes the game challenging, but so would having to play blindfolded, and I wouldn't call that a good feature. [/Q --end Dr. Von Katze wrote--]
The weapon degredation was a bit... overactive in the original release of the game. Subsequent patches made it so that weapons still broke after some time, but at a much more reliable pace. Also it was more common I believe to find weapons that were in "okay" condition as "random loot", so that not every weapon picked up from a monster was automatically broken (though there was still some of that).
It's not really all that different from keeping weapons "repaired" in an Elder Scrolls game. You use weapons, they eventually break, you fix them on your own with the appropriate skill... or find a new one to use instead. I can't remember without my manual but there may have even been a "RepairAid" cybernetic module to find, which automatically improved all fixing functions. I'm not 100% sure that I didn't just make that up however.
Unicorn Lynx (181775) on 6/11/2007 4:33 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Zovni wrote--]Sorry if I seem to be going into a defensive mode here but I already see the 20-page long review filled with opera and classical music references looming in the distance that basically says that the game sucks because it doesn't have a strong story and it has only 2 characters :S [/Q --end Zovni wrote--] LOL :) No, no, nothing like that. I mean, sure, I'll compare it to Bruckner's 7th symphony because of the feeling of solitude it inspires... ;) LOL, okay, seriously, I think this is a good game, but it's boring, so maybe I'm not connecting to it in the right way. I still haven't got far enough to write a review, but I'll see what comes out...
Why is the first SS better? I found it even more boring. Although the graphics and the interactivity are amazing.
Zovni (10504) on 6/11/2007 1:45 PM · Permalink · Report
Well if you ask me first of all its more intense in the sense that it is really you vs Shodan (and Diego, later on), there's no one to help you, the cyberpunk-horror theme seemed a bit more visceral to me and the sideplots were more interesting too. The gameplay had much more layers to it (cyberspace, the puzzles, etc.) and it also did a lot of things first, and that is really something that blows you away when you remember that its a 1994 game (i first played it around 95-96 if I remember correctly and it was still years ahead of its time), first time scripted events were used with good results story and gameplay-wise (years before Half-Life), a comprehensive gameworld with no "levels" (again before Half-Life)... and well, I just really just write a review about it.
To me however, the best thing in the game is all the interaction that you have with Shodan, its different in the sequel because as she guides you she feels much more like those cliche "tutorial" characters that provide mission objectives and little else. In the original she's always actively trying to hunt you down and is always taunting you, setting traps and generally fucking you up. I feel that no game before or since SS has really captured that feeling of playing against a living, breathing entity (talking of course, within the borders of a story-driven FPS and not deathmatch) to me there really has never been a villain so compelling in videogaming history. It is ironic if you think about it, as its not a character-heavy game but its the character development of this single character that marks the difference for SS. If you take Shodan away the game is an innovative FPS/pseudo-RPG and little more. With Shodan the game just gets... personal I'd say, and that obviously takes the level of immersion to stratospheric levels in a game that is already heavy on it...
But yeah, while it has sideplots and there's a compelling story (at least for me) there's not a whole lot of moral issues, or an epic, pretentious story nor unique human moments and tender, well-rounded characters that you fall in love with. You can get involved in the stories behind the resistance movements and the conspiracy behind Diego/Shodan, but it really is just the story of a guy vs this incredibly devious AI... and you play it more for the experience really. I'd say that's definetly not your cup of tea.
xroox (3895) on 6/11/2007 2:08 PM · Permalink · Report
You did a great job of summing up some of the things that make the original SS so good, Zovni!
I think it was a horrible mistake to do what they did with Shodan in the second game. In the first, she was a constant threat, toying with the player and I REALLY wanted to take her down. Yet in the second game, the player becomes her dumb delivery boy, doing all kinds of menial tasks for her while she hands out cyber modules and makes sarcastic comments ("Not bad for a pathetic insect"). I can see the interest in the basic idea of 'Now you have to work for your worst enemy' but they really screwed it up, in my opinion. Shodan lost her menace and became simply annoying. And instead of feeling like a desperate hero, out to stop a superior enemy... I felt like the game was treating me like a bit of an idiot.
Even so, I still think SS2's biggest problem is boring level design.
Unicorn Lynx (181775) on 6/10/2007 6:03 PM · Permalink · Report
It seems that the guy disliked what I did like about the game, which is the RPG system.
I didn't care for weapon degradation and re-spawning enemies.
My problem is that I got bored. I was even more bored by the first SS. I do realize that the games are interesting and have plenty of cool stuff, but the whole concept bores me. It is so unexciting to explore the space station!
I need somebody to cheer me up and to make me like this concept. Maybe it sounds strange, but I do think these games are great, yet boring at the same time.
Shoddyan (15004) on 6/11/2007 5:46 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Unicorn B. Lynx wrote--]My problem is that I got bored. I was even more bored by the first SS. I do realize that the games are interesting and have plenty of cool stuff, but the whole concept bores me. It is so unexciting to explore the space station! [/Q --end Unicorn B. Lynx wrote--]
Think of it as "exploring a town" with more hi-tech stuff lying around (unfortunately the majority of it as non-interactive decorations). Different strokes, I got bored playing Parasite Eve 2.
xroox (3895) on 6/11/2007 2:11 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Unicorn B. Lynx wrote--]I need somebody to cheer me up and to make me like this concept. Maybe it sounds strange, but I do think these games are great, yet boring at the same time. [/Q --end Unicorn B. Lynx wrote--]
I think the main problem is you need NPCs to talk to. So these games are not going to work for you.
Unicorn Lynx (181775) on 6/11/2007 3:10 PM · Permalink · Report
Maybe... maybe not. I enjoyed games like "Another World" or "ICO", where there is also nobody to talk to... I guess what bothers me in both SS games is that you have this ultra-complex space ship/station with lots of items, so basically there is a lot to explore and to pick up, and yet there are no characters... in other words, it plays a lot like a real RPG, more than an adventure or an action game, because the meat of the game are exploration and interaction... and yet, the exploration is confined to a claustrophobic space ship, and the interaction is limited to inanimate objects. Sorry, but for me, it's boring.
I say "sorry" because I really feel that way, there's nothing wrong with the game (I mean the first SS), on the contrary, there's plenty of great stuff, but as a whole, I'm bored and I have to force myself to have a game session that lasts longer than 10 minutes.
Unicorn Lynx (181775) on 6/13/2007 10:47 AM · Permalink · Report
Hey people, I think I'm beginning to like it... slowly, but surely... it grows on me... I'm getting addicted...
The Fabulous King (1332) on 6/13/2007 7:29 PM · Permalink · Report
OMGZ!!! Shodan!!! She gave me an irresistable urge to bang artificial lifeforms and then call it love.
Responsible Pyromaniac on 6/14/2007 2:44 AM · Permalink · Report
Y'know I get the same feeling about my toaster.
Unicorn Lynx (181775) on 6/14/2007 3:13 AM · Permalink · Report
Yikes!! Don't scare me!
Guys, I have to tell you one thing: this System Shock 2 is scary. Guess that's the secret of this game, huh? To be immersed into the atmsophere and to get scared...
MichaelPalin (1414) on 7/13/2007 8:31 AM · Permalink · Report
I hate to catch up to threads late, but here is my advice: play it with 3-4 friends in multiplayer mode, it is at least 10 times funnier. One thing I hate with many linear games is that, even now that everybody has a decent connection to internet, most of the MP games are MMORPG or FPSs or strategy games, but there are no games like this where you can share a story with more friends. That is, a story-MP mode. And even better, thanks to SS2 being an RPG, each friend can take a different approach for his/her character and make the gameplay richer.
By the way, I also hate not having participate in your GTA threads, I love those games.
Shoddyan (15004) on 7/13/2007 9:22 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start MichaelPalin wrote--] but there are no games like this where you can share a story with more friends. That is, a story-MP mode. And even better, thanks to SS2 being an RPG, each friend can take a different approach for his/her character and make the gameplay richer.[/Q --end MichaelPalin wrote--]
Note that representing this kind of experience is the intention of the Multiplayer: Co-Op attribute attached to games.
MichaelPalin (1414) on 7/14/2007 7:03 PM · Permalink · Report
Mmmmm, I think that most of the games that fall under that co-op mode don't agree with what I was calling "story-MP". Yes, you can fight with your friends against some bots in Enemy Territory and call it co-op, but I was talking about single-player modes that could be easily turn into multi-player. For example, how difficult would it be to adapt a Resident Evil to be multiplayer recycling the single player story, or an Halo, or an Unreal, or even a Thief game with a bit of imagination? You just have to make the game thinking on many players and add some basic client-server software to it. If the story is strongly connected to the main character it can be difficult, but there are thousands of games where the main character can be transform to main characters with very little effort and make the game many times funnier.
I feel so lonely playing games sometimes, :P
HandofShadow (49) on 8/29/2007 1:36 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Unicorn B. Lynx wrote--]Playing it, and still trying hard to understand why it is considered a masterpiece by so many people. Okay, it has atmosphere. Nice RPG angle. Great sounds. But... what's the reason to play it? I know it sounds stupid, but what is exactly the point here? So far, it's wandering around a haunted space ship, hunting for access cards, nanites, and batteries, reading e-mails and fighting creepy guys. There are no characters at all and the scenario is very repetitive. Also, I don't think it has an interesting style, it's just your typical cyberpunk. Is it going to be like that till the end? No one to talk to, nothing but corridors and rooms and computers? I got bored very quickly. Maybe I'm missing something there... so I'd like to be enlightened.
For the record, I tried playing the first one and I had the same feeling. [/Q --end Unicorn B. Lynx wrote--]
Wow, I can almost take the words from your post to describe the way I felt and still feel the about Morrowind. LOL
Unicorn Lynx (181775) on 8/29/2007 5:27 AM · Permalink · Report
I didn't know you could wander around a haunted space ship in Morrowind, hunting for access cards, nanites, and batteries, and reading e-mails :)
The Fabulous King (1332) on 9/9/2007 3:06 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
Bah, Morrowind is a great game. Have to fix my review, the complaints will remain the same, but I just have to praise teh fact that it's one of the most unique and wonderful fantasy settings I've ever experienced. Besides I just found the mod that adds less generic NPC's, so I'm quite happy.
Edit: So Oleg, when you are going to play Morrowind I advise you to get some mods also. The vanilla game is basically just a frame and the mods help to fill it out nicely, adding some much needed depth also.
Unicorn Lynx (181775) on 9/9/2007 4:10 PM · Permalink · Report
No, I won't install the mods. I want to judge the game by itself, the way the developers created it the first time. If it's not interesting... well, tant pis for the game.
Shoddyan (15004) on 9/10/2007 1:17 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Unicorn B. Lynx wrote--]No, I won't install the mods. I want to judge the game by itself, the way the developers created it the first time. If it's not interesting... well, tant pis for the game. [/Q --end Unicorn B. Lynx wrote--]
Fair enough.
When I play games, I try to create the most enjoyable experience for myself. In Morrowind's case that meant loading up way too many "must have" mods.... in System Shock 2's case... that meant applying the SS: Rebirth fan-made skins to make all the character models (humans, mutants and monkeys alike) look more detailed...Also playing it at 2am in the dark with the speakers turned up helps. In most other games it means applying a patch of some kind to get to the latest version.