Forums > MobyGames > A open query to Corn Popper & GameFly.
Starbuck the Third (22606) on 9/28/2013 4:11 PM · Permalink · Report
Ok, some cold hard facts. Since the redesign, almost, if not absolutely, all approvers have gone.
This has resulted in:
- No new games approved in 7 days, compared with anything between 2 and 10 being approved daily before redesign.
- No new screenshots approved in 7 days, compared with 2-3 per game every 2 or 3 days, give or take, pre redesign.
- No new reviews approved in 19 days, compared with maybe 1 or 2 every 7 days
- No new trivia approved in 40 days.
So my question to Corn Popper and his GameFly overlords is this: Was this redesign worth it, given that as a result, you've alienated just about every top approver & contributor (and then some), brought MG to a standstill, had it's redesign mocked by many a game forum and taken an A-bomb to you reputations as a result?
And for the record, I actually am asking. This is not be taking a stab at anyone, not me making an effort to sully anyone's reputation or me being all bitchy. It is honest curiosity.
And going forward, I would like to see (as would many others I suspect) more open communication and transparency from either Popper, or better yet, GF, and for them to then follow up on what they say/promise.
I am, frankly, not expecting a reply from either Popper or GF, It seems to much of an ask. But I live in vein hope.
Fred VT (25953) on 9/28/2013 5:36 PM · Permalink · Report
Most contributors have also stopped submitting. Just as an example, there is only on new game entry in my 0-72h and 3-11 days PS3 queue, and that game is GTA V. All the other queues are similar, most not having anything submitted in the 3 last days...
Daniel Saner (3503) on 9/28/2013 6:38 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Cavalary wrote--]that some will give in and come back after a month, two, three, and other new users will come in after that long as well...[/Q --end Cavalary wrote--]
I think they could wait a very long time for either one to happen. For new users, MG's bulky submission process was always the biggest hurdle, and now being additionally half-broken I don't see man new users putting up with it. And as for the previously active community, I don't see anything but a radical liberation of the database license ever give them the hope/impression again that their work will actually benefit someone.
Indra was here (20755) on 9/28/2013 8:41 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Cavalary wrote--]They're probably just thinking to wait it out, that some will give in and come back after a month, two, three, and other new users will come in after that long as well... [/Q --end Cavalary wrote--]Just sit back and see how that plan will eventually backfire. Only was it won't backfire is to fire everyone involved with this mess the first time around. Even then it's not a guarantee.
Greg Mueller (3) on 9/30/2013 5:04 PM · Permalink · Report
Hello. I apologize for not responding earlier. We have been working on getting bugs documented and we've brought on a new developer to help us with the work. Corn Popper has been very busy funneling issues to me so he is definitely listening and bringing your concerns to me. Please don't blame him for any of this.
I understand why you are frustrated. In all the time Moby has been around there hasn't been as drastic a change as this redesign. In addition to the bugs it's just a lot to get used to. I can tell you that we are working to make this new site better over time, but if you want to leave that's certainly your choice and I'm very sorry to see you go. You've made MobyGames the most comprehensive video game database anywhere in the world with a tremendous amount of effort and care. I could work on Moby full time for the next 20 years I'd still not have as much time into it as Corn Popper and all the approvers.
To your question about whether the redesign was worth it or not, that remains to be seen. The fact that we've lost the support of the approvers I can't consider anything less than a failure on my part though, and for that I'm sorry.
I can only tell you that we are working on Moby and we do want to make it something you'll enjoy using and be proud of once again. We'll be getting some updates out soon and we'll be sure to post here to let you know if you're still around.
Daniel Saner (3503) on 9/30/2013 6:29 PM · Permalink · Report
Well, +1 point for communicating again, +1 point for admitting mistakes and +1 point for acknowledging the current reality. That still leaves a lot of unanswered questions, but it's a start and I'll hold tight. Speaking for me personally though, I doubt that anything short of a data liberation would get me contributing again (here or on any other community-based project).
Also, all the aesthetics aside (and I said from the beginning, with some tweaks I don't see how it wouldn't be possible to get used to), I will say once again that I don't think mere bugfixing will do. Even for a web company that works at regular speed this would take way too long on a live system. I still don't think there's an alternative to a complete roll-back. No one here is under the illusion that there was any reason for the redesign apart from some executive, who never visited the site, thinking it would be needed in order to show that they're doing something with the site they bought. Heck, even if the point was to integrate the site better with other GameFly properties, the old site did a better job, because it had the GameFly logo.
vedder (70822) on 9/30/2013 7:00 PM · Permalink · Report
Glad you decided to post this Greg.
Communication is good!
I hope to see the site improve again in the near future, so I can at least keep using it as my place to go for games related research. It's sad to see the community in uproar and leaving. Luckily some of us have found a new spot to hang out on Facebook. It's also unfortunate that some decided to take their frustrations out in a an childish or harassing manner. I had expected better from some of the people here, but I understand their frustration.
I hope the site will get back on top at some point, but I fear something has been lost in the process. You're always going to repel part of the old guard with big changes, but I feel this could've been handled better from GameFly's side.
Donatello (466) on 9/30/2013 7:10 PM · Permalink · Report
I don't think there is any wrong in the so called "childishness" of people's behaviour. This is not a personal jab at you, but correct me if I am wrong, didn't you say before that you've sort of stopped contributing anyhow?
But then there are people who were still very actively contributing (Oleg, for example) before this fallout happened. Despite the fact that we've been lied to before, held on empty promises. Civilized attempts at communication have led us nowhere.
Doesn't mean we should continue on like that. We finally have ears to hear our pleads (or do we, really?), so maybe indeed, a return to a more calm-mannered dialogue will yield something in the end.
I don't have high hopes, however. With Gamefly on board, there will never be a guarantee that such events will not take place again. The only real alternative will be new alternatives, such as Oregami. Though yes, MobyGames will probably remain an useful source for some while until it's finally eclipsed by a new project.
vedder (70822) on 10/1/2013 10:47 AM · Permalink · Report
Yes I did stop approving and most contributing a year ago. I needed to scratch one of my hobbies to make room for something else. MobyGames was the obvious candidate, because it was already obvious back then that the site was a ship without a captain lost at sea. It was just a matter of time until it sank. It's just that now that that has finally happened people suddenly seem surprised that the giant leviathan that was looming beneath the waves was not the swell new captain people hoped it to be. I'm not sure where the surprise comes from. If you ask me the childishness (and I don't mean the comedic jabs at new nicks and and avatars, but the personal assaults and more mean spirited trolling) is just venting frustration for having so much faith in something that was so doomed to fail.
I'm still cautiously optimistic though. I can still see this work out in the end. But this will take time. A LOT of time, if past experience says anything. Months or years even. And you can be pissed off about that. You have every right to be, because in the old state at least most things were functional.
Alaka (106123) on 10/1/2013 5:14 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start vedder wrote--]Yes I did stop approving and most contributing a year ago. I needed to scratch one of my hobbies to make room for something else. MobyGames was the obvious candidate, because it was already obvious back then that the site was a ship without a captain lost at sea. It was just a matter of time until it sank. It's just that now that that has finally happened people suddenly seem surprised that the giant leviathan that was looming beneath the waves was not the swell new captain people hoped it to be. I'm not sure where the surprise comes from. [/Q --end vedder wrote--]
I think people are mostly surprised that Gamefly would purposefully screw up a site as it would seem counter intuitive if I assume their goal being was to make money (or as CP coldly put it, not to sink their ROI.) I mean did you honestly think they would roll out this abomination on a live site alienating their free work force. It seems so unfathomable, but yet here we are. This whole fiasco reminds me of the XBONE rollout. Corporation reveals their new product that's worse than the previous one, public outrage is ignored, the company holds steady till the presale numbers come in, then are forced to backpeddle because the company will lose money if they don't change course. Obviously this isn't a 1:1 comparison, it just feels similar to that to me.
On a side note, I personally contributed less and less after the 2010 buyout because I was very wary of the way the site was heading.
[Q --start vedder wrote--] If you ask me the childishness (and I don't mean the comedic jabs at new nicks and and avatars, but the personal assaults and more mean spirited trolling) is just venting frustration for having so much faith in something that was so doomed to fail. [/Q --end vedder wrote--]
Calling a spade a spade isn't wrong though. The owners have acted in a very deceptive manner, so the mocking they received was rightfully deserved. This website has probably one of the most civilized discussions on the internet that I have ever seen, so to see the community behave the way it has, means something terrible has happened. I'm sorry, but from where I'm sitting that blame falls directly on the previous owners shoulders for breaking our trust that we had put into them not to screw us over. I don't blame Gamefly, their just a corporation that only cares about making money to appease their stockholders. Their heartlessness is understandable, Jim, Rob, et al. actions aren't that easily forgiven, especially in the way they blow us off.
Look at this obviously face-saving quote from Jim: "I urge you to disregard any overwhelmingly passionate comments from users" Tell me honestly he doesn't deserve any sort of backlash from that. I'm not letting that type of disrespect slide, you can of course let it, if that's your prerogative.
[Q --start vedder wrote--] I'm still cautiously optimistic though. I can still see this work out in the end. But this will take time. A LOT of time, if past experience says anything. Months or years even. And you can be pissed off about that. You have every right to be, because in the old state at least most things were functional. [/Q --end vedder wrote--] [/Q --end vedder wrote--]
I think another game database will eclipse MG by the time the site gets fixed from it's FUBARED state. Let's face facts, Gamefly still refuses to have any sort of meaningful dialogue with us. If they would simply listen to us we could work within the redesign and get it back to at least acceptable levels. But they have shown they have their own ideas, ideas they think are better than ours, and will not take heed to our advice. XBONE all over again. Microsoft learned the hard way. Hopefully Gamefly will too.
Trixter (8952) on 10/2/2013 5:33 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start ALAKA wrote--] Look at this obviously face-saving quote from Jim: "I urge you to disregard any overwhelmingly passionate comments from users" Tell me honestly he doesn't deserve any sort of backlash from that. I'm not letting that type of disrespect slide, you can of course let it, if that's your prerogative. [/Q]
I'm not sure how you think that's disrespect. I think disrespect is not waiting even a month before jumping ship, and changing your handle and avatar. You can be passionate about a project without acting foolish.
My comments would be exactly the same if this was some other community, such as the vintage computing community, or the demoscene, etc. Act like a child and you will be treated like one.
I am not involved with gamefly at all. I wish you would stop insinuating that I'm trying to "save face" like I'm am employee or something.
Foxhack (32100) on 10/2/2013 5:51 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Trixter wrote--] I'm not sure how you think that's disrespect. I think disrespect is not waiting even a month before jumping ship, and changing your handle and avatar. You can be passionate about a project without acting foolish.
My comments would be exactly the same if this was some other community, such as the vintage computing community, or the demoscene, etc. Act like a child and you will be treated like one.
I am not involved with gamefly at all. I wish you would stop insinuating that I'm trying to "save face" like I'm am employee or something. [/Q --end Trixter wrote--]Heh. Because most retrogaming or vintage computer communities have the same pattern of ignoring the user's requests for answers about things for the past seven years. Right?
Oh wait. No they don't. Because most of them are open about their leadership and who gets to call the shots instead of empty promises about things that never get fixed.
Three years went by after the sale. Not a thing changed. And you expect the users to sit idly by when this mess started, despite there being a history of the admins (who we thought were still in charge!) not even bothering to answer simple questions? Are you even aware of what you're typing?
They don't want the same crap to happen again. "Peaceful" questions don't work. So what other option do they have?
Fred VT (25953) on 10/2/2013 6:11 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Trixter wrote--] [Q2 --start ALAKA wrote--] Look at this obviously face-saving quote from Jim: "I urge you to disregard any overwhelmingly passionate comments from users" Tell me honestly he doesn't deserve any sort of backlash from that. I'm not letting that type of disrespect slide, you can of course let it, if that's your prerogative. [/Q2 --end ALAKA wrote--]
I'm not sure how you think that's disrespect. I think disrespect is not waiting even a month before jumping ship, and changing your handle and avatar. You can be passionate about a project without acting foolish.
My comments would be exactly the same if this was some other community, such as the vintage computing community, or the demoscene, etc. Act like a child and you will be treated like one.
I am not involved with gamefly at all. I wish you would stop insinuating that I'm trying to "save face" like I'm am employee or something. [/Q --end Trixter wrote--]
Most members waited more than a week before jumping ship, even after the 2010 events. It is only after waiting and having no answers whatsoever and seeing that barely anything got fixed that people started to change their avatars and handle.
It is also noticeable how the ones who gave the most (and for a long time) to the MG community that protested or left first, the rest of us were more patient ans even optimistic for a while.
Now if some have been lashing insults against GF, you or Corn Popper is something else. I can't say which ones are deserved or not, and I know that they were unfortunately heartfelt.
And by the way, if a kid throws a tantrum because his parents don't feed him, don't listen to him, or hit him, it's not a whim anymore and he should be taken seriously.
Alaka (106123) on 10/2/2013 6:59 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Trixter wrote--] [Q2 --start ALAKA wrote--] Look at this obviously face-saving quote from Jim: "I urge you to disregard any overwhelmingly passionate comments from users" Tell me honestly he doesn't deserve any sort of backlash from that. I'm not letting that type of disrespect slide, you can of course let it, if that's your prerogative. [/Q2 --end ALAKA wrote--]
[Q --start Trixter wrote--] I'm not sure how you think that's disrespect. [/Q--start Trixter wrote--]
Hmmm...let's see. You say disregard the passionate users thoughts of what has been transpiring here. People are passionate because they care, because they put a lot of their own free time into this site. Why should our opinions mean less than CP/Gamefly's? Why does our perspective of how things went down need to be silenced? It makes it appear you want the questions only answered in a controlled way so that you and your buddies can save face from your underhanded deeds.
[Q --start Trixter wrote--] I think disrespect is not waiting even a month before jumping ship, and changing your handle and avatar. You can be passionate about a project without acting foolish. [/Q--start Trixter wrote--]
You must be referring to others as I only changed my avatar that simply requests Gamefly to return the site back to its pre-broken state (a totally reasonable request I might add - if they did that it might of actually saved the site. Oh well.) So what do you think ticked off the top contributors to the site? A simple redesign? Don't be foolish, Jim. They're pissed because their opinions are/were ignored over a long period of time (years), not simply over a month as you seem to think it is. Plus sellling the site behind our backs (you were involved in this part) was an "honorable" move after promising you guys were going to start fixing the site up (I don't hold you responsible for this part, because it was clear you were gone at this point).
Don't you find it a little odd that people that have been with the site for several years and contributed many hours of their spare time immediately jumped ship after this redesign was rolled out. You know the same redesign we gave tons of feedback on and reported the myriad of bugs and problems that it had,that was simply ignored. Oh wait, you don't know because you weren't here for that, you made your money and haven't been with the site since 2010 so I'll excuse your ignorance (not your treachery however).
[Q --start Trixter wrote--] My comments would be exactly the same if this was some other community, such as the vintage computing community, or the demoscene, etc. Act like a child and you will be treated like one. [/Q --start Trixter wrote--]
Well your actions so far paint you as a face saving charlatan (Trixter,.ahh so now I get it) so be prepared to be labeled as such.
[Q --start Trixter wrote--] I am not involved with gamefly at all. I wish you would stop insinuating that I'm trying to "save face" like I'm am employee or something. [/Q --end Trixter wrote--]
We know your not involved with Gamefly. You made your money already off of free labor and bounced. It's obvious you are trying to save face because you don't want the real story to come out that you got paid off of volunteer work and backstabbed an entire community in the process for cash, I hope that sacrificing your "baby" to Moloch was well worth it.
Indra was here (20755) on 10/2/2013 8:25 PM · Permalink · Report
munches popcorn
Everyone please excuseTrixter. He seems to be under the false impression that he's on the moral high ground here. As most of us have suspected for many years now, it appears he is totally oblivious on what has been going on here. Just wait for his next reply to prove that point. :p
Kinda reminds me of the republican caucus was shocked when Obama won. Not entirely if Trixter is living in a bubble where MG is all fine and dandy, but there does not seem to be any other logical explanation. Though I agree that Trixter should be left out of this. His professional opinions on the site are irrelevant as of 2010.
continues munching
piltdown_man (236989) on 10/2/2013 11:05 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Trixter wrote--] I think disrespect is not waiting even a month before jumping ship, and changing your handle and avatar. You can be passionate about a project without acting foolish. [/Q --end Trixter wrote--] You make a fair and rational point, knee-jerk reactions, name calling and general abuse can be counter productive. Couldn't agree more. However, as one who has changed their avatar I refute the suggestion that this was disrespectful.
I don't like the new design but I could work with it if it was fully functional. Initially I believed things would get better. I watched the forums daily and I saw that bugs were dutifully reported but few, if any, were fixed and there was absolutely no communication. Now it happens that I had some part submissions in the system that I could not access due to the functional deficiency of the new design. After a two weeks they were deleted by the database housekeeping and that's when I lost patience and changed my avatar.
I was brought up with a very English middle-class background where one always gives the benefit of the doubt and where it is most impolite to complain. In my eyes I was not being disrespectful, I was and still am making a small and very English protest.
Rola (8483) on 10/2/2013 11:57 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Trixter wrote--]I think disrespect is not waiting even a month before jumping ship[/Q --end Trixter wrote--] Not even a month? Depends on how you count it. This failed redesign was previewed to approvers months ago, ignoring their feedback and launching it despite their bug reports was what made contributors upset. We could also say we gave GameFly three years of "assume good faith", when we should leave like those who did in 2010 (after the sale).
In my country there was a joke during the commie period: don't say we got a flat tire, say "we have three good tires!". That's how you sound. No wonder people associate you with GameFly, you speak like corporate spokesman.
I'm still convinced GameFly displays incompetence/carelessness when it comes to its management over MobyGames.
lilalurl (733) on 10/3/2013 6:02 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Rola wrote--]In my country there was a joke during the commie period: don't say we got a flat tire, say "we have three good tires!". That's how you sound. No wonder people associate you with GameFly, you speak like corporate spokesman.[/Q --end Rola wrote--]
Off-topic, but this is a good one that I need to remember. I have a natural tendency to notice negative things. And even when I say that, if I notice it then competitors, investors, etc.... will also notice it one day or another, I receive the corporate "you need to think positive".
Indra was here (20755) on 10/3/2013 9:34 AM · edited · Permalink · Report
[Q --start lilalurl wrote--]And even when I say that, if I notice it then competitors, investors, etc.... will also notice it one day or another, I receive the corporate "you need to think positive". [/Q --end lilalurl wrote--]I guess Rola's commie analogy should only be used as a last resort, when the other guys seems to not be getting the point:
If you're going somewhere, that one flat tire means all the difference in the world.
If you're contributing and hanging out daily at a website, an unsuccessful redesign means all the difference in the world. Not so much if you rarely use it.
I believe it's called context.
Cavalary (11445) on 9/30/2013 7:29 PM · Permalink · Report
I'm quite disappointed by the overly calm, reasonable and even accomodating replies here. What happened does not deserve any sort of understanding, so I'm taking a sort of "don't negotiate with terrorists" approach to anything from GF or the founders on this.
Fred VT (25953) on 9/30/2013 7:10 PM · Permalink · Report
Having this kind of official communication from the start might have prevented the alienation of some people. Honestly, it'll take a lot more than this to get the site to its former glory, and only by continual communication on GameFly's part can this be achieved.
The faster the bugs are fixed, and the features restored, the better. Efforts to give the community more features would also prove the most efficient way to bring back contributors and approvers and attract new ones.
If it were in my power, I'd scrap that redesign altogether and make it from scratch. I'm sure you could find capable and willing web-designers among MG's community...
Starbuck the Third (22606) on 9/30/2013 9:47 PM · Permalink · Report
First off, thanks for the reply Greg. Better late than never, I guess.
If you/GameFly are going to be putting the effort in, listen to input and do it with transparency and honesty, that would be a big positive, and hopefully get some of the old guard back.
I for one, at least, will be keeping my ear to the forum, and going from there.
Indra was here (20755) on 10/1/2013 2:56 AM · edited · Permalink · Report
Kinda reminds me of the abused partner mentality. Just can't take a hint when enough is enough.
Burn.